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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Default Do the Thousand Sons even know?

After reading 'A Thousand Sons' for at least the fourth consecutive time, skimming through Lexicanum and the Wikia pages, as well as rereading 'Prospero Burns' for the second time, I can't figure out why the Thousand Sons fought under Horus after the Fall of Prospero, and then continued to fight, on occasion, for Abaddon in the millennia after.

My point is, how the hell did they not know that Horus had tricked Russ into wiping them out, rather than bringing them peacefully back to Terra. Magnus was, after the Emperor, the greatest Pysker in the Galaxy. His sons, Ahriman and the like, sifted through the future (I know they were blind prior to the Fall, but in the immediate aftermath?) with their powers.

It is stated in the Wikia (I know its not entirely accurate 100% of the time, but I'm going to go with it), that Ahriman cast the Rubric immediately after fleeing Prospero and landing on the Planet of the Sorcerers. The Rubric swelled his and his already powerful fellow Legionaries into even grander Psyker's, but reducing the weaker Marines to automaton husks. Yet, the Thousand Sons still fought on Terra with Horus.

I just find it hard to believe, that the Thousand Sons (and Magnus if he gives a shit) didn't ultimately find out that the nature of their fall and casting as traitors was due to Horus' manipulations. And if they do in fact know that Horus was the one who manipulated him, why still fight the Imperium? The Thousand Sons were described as the most loyal of the Legions, I would think that their bitterness would be directed at their 'fellow' traitors.

Opinions and discussion would be great. If there is indeed fluff or canon showing that they do know of this,then could someone point me in the right direction plz.

And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties.-Ahriman.
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 10:52 AM
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Because it would kind of suck game and fluffwise to have a chapter that was on NOBODIES side, you'd literally have to create the 'Thousand Sons' race of models, no bad thing, but GW cant be arsed so the thousand sons just roll with it, poorly justified with some form of 'the emperor betrayed us a teeny bit more....'

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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 10:57 AM
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I've never understood either why the Thousand Sons, the most loyal of legions, still fights for Chaos after their deportation to the Planet of Sorcerers. Before that it was just a silly mistake on Magnus' part and a big misunderstanding. Suddenly they're the avenging angels of Tzeentch? Erm, re-wind please?
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 10:57 AM
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I think that Magnus was held hostage byTzeentch to some degree; if he rebelled too much to Horus' plans Tzeentch would mutate the survivors and he would lose everything (and Thousand Sons proved he couldn't condemn his sons).

Plus after the Rubric even his sons futures were taken out of his hands and so he had lost everything to his arrogance.

In terms of the 40k universe, I think Ahriman is on no-ones side; he aids whomever will further his goals; I think its in 'Atlas Infernal' Czernak notes Ahriman is consumed with the acquisition of knowledge and nothing else.
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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I actually think Chapters and Space Marines forces that are on nobodies side are the most interesting haha.

And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties.-Ahriman.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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Erm, re-wind please?
Its crazy. I think there must be more novels and fluff on the way to discern this surely. A huge leap.

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I think that Magnus was held hostage by Tzeentch to some degree; if he rebelled too much to Horus' plans Tzeentch would mutate the survivors and he would lose everything (and Thousand Sons proved he couldn't condemn his sons).
Again I don't really get it. The Chaos powers, to my knowledge, rarely acted in unison. I can't imagine the Chaos God of Scheme-y shit Tzeentch fretting too much about Magnus rebelling against Horus, I mean after Horus finally turned traitor it was anyone's game because the dice had already been rolled. The entire Galaxy was at war, a 'loyal to noone' Thousand Sons Legion consisting of a few thousand Marines thrown into the mix just spices things up a bit.

And I'm sure that Ahriman cured that mutation, or was it just a farce? Was the Rubric even real?

And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties.-Ahriman.
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
And I'm sure that Ahriman cured that mutation, or was it just a farce? Was the Rubric even real?
He cured it but turned most of the Legion to dust. If Magnus had just got of his arse to help they'd have been fine, but he was too preoccupied "not getting involved" in order to save his Legion... when getting involved was the only way to save his Legion...

Come on Magnus, you're supposed to be CLEVER!
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
I just find it hard to believe, that the Thousand Sons (and Magnus if he gives a shit) didn't ultimately find out that the nature of their fall and casting as traitors was due to Horus' manipulations. And if they do in fact know that Horus was the one who manipulated him, why still fight the Imperium? The Thousand Sons were described as the most loyal of the Legions, I would think that their bitterness would be directed at their 'fellow' traitors.
You are assuming here that Horus had something to do with their fall. This bit of fluff seems to get altered every few novels. In the initial books he was responsible for influencing Russ, but this has changed.

Currently, as the fluff stands from The Outcast Dead, Horus was already known as a traitor before Magnus sent his message. Which makes him actually being involved extremely unlikely. The likeliest candidate now to have had any influence on Russ' actions is Valdor.

It's also still vague as to whether it was supposed to be an excecution or an arrest. Prospero Burns would indicate that Russ was sent to execute, but considering that Dorn and Malcador describe Russ' actions as 'headstrong' and 'over-zealous' in Deliverance Lost this might also not be the case.

Also, I think a possible reason for Magnus' turn was survival. His legion is damned in the eyes of the loyalists and they've been decimated by the Wolves (who still have warriors pursuing them). Maybe becoming allies with Horus was his best shot at making it through the Heresy.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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You are assuming here that Horus had something to do with their fall. This bit of fluff seems to get altered every few novels. In the initial books he was responsible for influencing Russ, but this has changed.

Currently, as the fluff stands from The Outcast Dead, Horus was already known as a traitor before Magnus sent his message. Which makes him actually being involved extremely unlikely. The likeliest candidate now to have had any influence on Russ' actions is Valdor.
If that is how fluff is then consider this, why is Magnus still not bitter at Horus. Indirectly if the fluff is at the point you say it is, or directly as it was before, the Thousand Sons downfall is still as a result of Horus' betrayal. It doesn't explain why the Thousand Sons still fight for Chaos as a whole, knowing that the whole thing was Horus' and Lorgar's fault. I would've thought that they would in some way try to sabotage the rebellion, or combat Horus' efforts, perhaps retaining a scintilla of loyalty.

Quote:
Also, I think a possible reason for Magnus' turn was survival. His legion is damned in the eyes of the loyalists and they've been decimated by the Wolves (who still have warriors pursuing them). Maybe becoming allies with Horus was his best shot at making it through the Heresy.
In the aftermath of the Heresy, okay yes the protection offered by the Ruinous Powers would have been the Legion's best shot for survival. But during the Heresy? Nope, I think that they could have easily melted into shadows, perhaps feeling beyond the boundary of the Imperium of skirting around its edges while they let the Heresy unfold. 'Weathering the Storm' I think the phrase is.

And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties.-Ahriman.
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 12:23 PM
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In the aftermath of the Heresy, okay yes the protection offered by the Ruinous Powers would have been the Legion's best shot for survival. But during the Heresy? Nope, I think that they could have easily melted into shadows, perhaps feeling beyond the boundary of the Imperium of skirting around its edges while they let the Heresy unfold. 'Weathering the Storm' I think the phrase is.[/QUOTE]

Magnus had the loyalists hunting him, his choices where be hunted to death by the loyalists or stay out of the heresy, in which case the winner would come looking to kill him, or join Horus who although betrayed him would offer him protection.

Think about it like the child soldiers in west africa, bandits come to your village kidnap you and make you kill a member off your family or they will kill the whole lot, the kids stay with the bandits cos they cant stay with their family after committing such a crime even though the bandits made them, fucked either way, just like Magnus

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