Do the Thousand Sons even know? - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 01:09 PM
Senior Member
 
Chompy Bits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,514
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
If that is how fluff is then consider this, why is Magnus still not bitter at Horus. Indirectly if the fluff is at the point you say it is, or directly as it was before, the Thousand Sons downfall is still as a result of Horus' betrayal. It doesn't explain why the Thousand Sons still fight for Chaos as a whole, knowing that the whole thing was Horus' and Lorgar's fault. I would've thought that they would in some way try to sabotage the rebellion, or combat Horus' efforts, perhaps retaining a scintilla of loyalty.
Except their fall really isn't Horus' fault. No one told Magnus to use sorcery to try to warn the Emperor. In fact, the whole point of Nikaea was to get him to stop with the sorcery (well, not just him but he was still included). And the Sons still had the flesh change to contend with. Even without the Heresy something would have had to give at some point. The truth is the Sons were already fucked long before Horus turned traitor.

And why do they fight for chaos? Well, Magnus dedicated their service to Tzeentch. It was a price he paid to allow them to escape the wrath of the Wolves on Prospero. And what good would have come from sabotaging Horus? The loyalists weren't about to have anything to do with him and he already had a target on his back after the devastation he brought to Terra. Why piss off the traitors as well and be hated and targeted from all sides? Why hamper or destroy a potential ally for a cause he is no longer part of? He became a Daemon Prince, there really is no return to loyalty or redemption after that.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

Last edited by Chompy Bits; 08-04-12 at 01:15 PM.
Chompy Bits is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 01:24 PM
Senior Member
 
Barnster's Avatar
Barnster's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2,122
Reputation: 18
Default

What does "fight for chaos" mean in the real term?

Most of the sons actions since the heresy has been seeking personal treasure/ knowledge and seeking retribution/ revenge on the space wolves for destroying Prospero

There is no evidence that they are actively "furthering the ways of chaos" to topple the imperium like the word bearers and black legion. In fact non of the god specific legions do!

Think about the death guard cause some plagues, nasty but hasn't got the aim to kill everyone

World eater kill maim burn, mehh, cities can be rebuilt and repopulated

ECs just go and get high, not toppling an empire there

Destroying the imperium really doesn't matter

Also theres no evidence that it was Horus, more than likely it was Valdor. And Magnus likes horus and tried to save him and is very close to Lorgar, so it makes sense to side with those two than just wait to die
Barnster is offline  
post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
LongfangFenrika93's Avatar
LongfangFenrika93's Flag is: Scotland
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Stirling, Scotland.
Posts: 65
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Magnus had the loyalists hunting him, his choices where be hunted to death by the loyalists or stay out of the heresy, in which case the winner would come looking to kill him, or join Horus who although betrayed him would offer him protection.
Hunting him through the EoT? I can't imagine many Loyalists making their way to the Planet of the Sorcerers. The problem is though there is that Magnus chose certain damnation by joining Horus, while staying out of the Heresy and manipulating events to possibly save his Legion in the long run would be more logical.

Quote:
Except their fall really isn't Horus' fault. No one told Magnus to use sorcery to try to warn the Emperor. In fact, the whole point of Nikaea was to get him to stop with the sorcery (well, not just him but he was still included). And the Sons still had the flesh change to contend with. Even without the Heresy something would have had to give at some point. The truth is the Sons were already fucked long before Horus turned traitor.
Indirectly it is. If Horus hadn't turned traitor, then the Sons wouldn't have been decimated by the Wolves for the reason they were. Regardless of whether the Sons would have been destroyed later by the flesh-change, or by breaking the Edict of Nikaea, I'm baffled by how quickly they accepted their lot. They may have been fucked before the Heresy, but Horus turning was the actual fucking, so to speak.

Quote:
And why do they fight for chaos? Well, Magnus dedicated their service to Tzeentch. It was a price he paid to allow them to escape the wrath of the Wolves on Prospero. And what good would have come from sabotaging Horus? The loyalists weren't about to have anything to do with him and he already had a target on his back after the devastation he brought to Terra. Why piss off the traitors as well and be hated and targeted from all sides? Why hamper or destroy a potential ally for a cause he is no longer part of? He became a Daemon Prince, there really is no return to loyalty or redemption after that.
Running from possible destruction to certain servitude? Isn't much of a bargain there. I don't know I just see the Thousand Sons as smarter than that. They were the only Legion out of 18 that had the broadest understanding of the Immaterium, and they allow themselves to become slaves to a higher power? After centuries of teaching and training in the arts they roll over? Madness.

Why piss off the traitors and sabotage them? Well, the Galaxy was in the predicament it was in because of Horus' fall, and Magnus always held in his teachings that Humanity should be enlightened and cradled and guided and the like. I would have thought, that as a reluctant traitor Magnus would have held true to at least a smidgeon of these teachings? Why hamper a potential ally? Because that potential ally was the reason, directly or indirectly, leading to the Legions almost destruction.

And no return to loyalty or redemption, but vengeance against the main culprits perhaps.

And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties.-Ahriman.
LongfangFenrika93 is offline  
 
post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
LongfangFenrika93's Avatar
LongfangFenrika93's Flag is: Scotland
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Stirling, Scotland.
Posts: 65
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
There is no evidence that they are actively "furthering the ways of chaos" to topple the imperium like the word bearers and black legion. In fact non of the god specific legions do!

Think about the death guard cause some plagues, nasty but hasn't got the aim to kill everyone

World eater kill maim burn, mehh, cities can be rebuilt and repopulated

ECs just go and get high, not toppling an empire there

Destroying the imperium really doesn't matter

Also theres no evidence that it was Horus, more than likely it was Valdor. And Magnus likes horus and tried to save him and is very close to Lorgar, so it makes sense to side with those two than just wait to die
By embracing Chaos, revelling in it and spreading its corruption, the 'God specific Legions' are actively furthering the ways of Chaos. Slaneeshi cults? Nurgle-devoted cults? The countless ones you here about from almost every world in the Warhammer 40k Universe? That pretty much is furthering the spread of Chaos.

Destroying the Imperium matters very much to them. Despite their constant internecine wars the Traitor Legions all hate the Imperium immensely, it borders on obsession. Infact, it is an obsession for them.

There is actually more evidence right now for it being Horus who manipulated the Wolves, since it was actually stated in the earlier Heresy novels, than it being Valdor who, quite frankly, I haven't heard one convincing argument for.

Magnus may well have liked Horus and Lorgar, but after learning that Horus and Lorgar were about to bring the Galaxy to the brink of annihilation, I think he may have reconsidered. And I'm pretty sure that Magnus could do more than simply wait to die.

And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties.-Ahriman.
LongfangFenrika93 is offline  
post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 04:10 PM
Junior Member
 
TheGoblin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
Reputation: 1
Default

Perhaps it was the case that Magnus was just faced with utter despair. The realization that an entity more cruel and intelligent than he could possibly imagine was influencing his destiny perhaps even before he was born, as well as the destiny of the entire universe is bound to give a person pause for. When confronted with the truth, of his utter helplessness maybe he realized that it was futile to fight against such a being. Magnus considered himself above his "primordial ancestors" and thought that he could shepard them into a golden age. Now he realized that there is only one true master and that this "Golden Age" would end up empowering it. Why not serve Tzeentch, after all if he chose not to, he'd probably end up serving him anyway, so the best course of action is to embrace him. Such is the way with Tzeentch, whatever you do, he'll be pulling the strings.

"Death? You want death? I'm afraid that would be far too boring."
TheGoblin is offline  
post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 04:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Lost&Damned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 364
Reputation: 3
Default

Magnus shed what remaind of his loyalty to the imperium of man and to the Emperor when he refused to be killed by Russ, up till then all his actions were still (Ar least in his mind) geared towards the salvation of the imperium, as soon as he used the knowledge/power Tzeentch gave him to teleport himself and his entire legion of Prospero he officially became a plaything of Tzeentch (Arguably he always was).

The planet of Scorcerers was created by tzeentch to mock magnus and his legion as much as it was for them to use it as their home-base.

If he didnt join Tzeentch he had 2 options watch the remainder of his legion devolve into monsters, or die as he was meant to at the hands of Russ.

Magnus made the choice for the legion, the rest had no say in it, he may have been smart, his legion may have been preeminent in its understanding, but lets face it, in hindsight they out of all the legions were down right retarded, Magnus always believed he could control the warp, always felt he was more knowledgeable than the emperor, he didnt listen in Nikea, he didnt listen to his adopted farther, he didnt listen to his brothers, he always thought he had the answers, vanity and pride was his undoing and by extension his legions.

Ahriman embodies these values, he believed himself above Magnus, blinded by his own perceived superiority, he against the Emperors decree and that of magnus went ahead and did his Rubric.
What they both have in common is they both think they are the masters of their fate, yet at every turn they are guided, mislead and ruined, Ahriman thinks that he dosent serve Tzeentch yet every act he has perpetrated since the Heresy has done nought but empower the changer of ways.

(Anyway we still need at least one more novel of the thousand sons to really know what happened on the planet of the sorcerers and magnus's motives).

Magnus destroyed more than Horus and Lorgar did together, they may have brought the galaxy to the brink, but he imprisoned the Emperor, destroyed the Imperium's future and nearly destroyed Terra.

Last edited by Lost&Damned; 08-04-12 at 04:38 PM.
Lost&Damned is offline  
post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 04:45 PM
Senior Member
 
Lord Commander Solus's Avatar
Lord Commander Solus's Flag is: Great Britain
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 200
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost&Damned View Post
Magnus shed what remaind of his loyalty to the imperium of man and to the Emperor when he refused to be killed by Russ, up till then all his actions were still
[TSons Fanboy Mode]

Woah, now. Magnus was probably the most loyal Primarch, with the most loyal Legion. He was utterly loyal to the Emperor; so much so that he even denied a direct order from the Emperor in order to try and warn him about the betrayal. He could have obeyed the Emperor and not used his powers, and then the Big E may not have been warned about Horus. But so devoted was Magnus to the Emperor that he was prepared to earn his wrath to help and serve him. If that's not loyal I don't know what is.

As for refusing to be killed by Russ... come on, man! Russ starts landing troops everywhere and killing Magnus' Legion and *still* Magnus doesn't get involved. He waits until they've pretty much been screwed over before thundering down and turning on god-mode. If Russ had just made a strike at Magnus, rather than the whole bloody planet first, he may actually have come quietly. Instead, the dirty great Space Wolf decided to raze Prospero and its Legion first to get Magnus upset. He's got the subtlety of a nuclear missile, that one.

[/fanboy]

I've yet to read Prospero Burns, but I'll have to keep a Thousand Sons nearby in case I ever need to brace myself for the heretical anti-TSons propaganda I'm likely to read within.
Lord Commander Solus is offline  
post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 04:49 PM
Senior Member
 
Chompy Bits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,514
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Hunting him through the EoT? I can't imagine many Loyalists making their way to the Planet of the Sorcerers. The problem is though there is that Magnus chose certain damnation by joining Horus, while staying out of the Heresy and manipulating events to possibly save his Legion in the long run would be more logical.
Well, we know Russ sent the 13th Great Company to pursue the Sons. And there isn't a question of being damned by joining Horus. Magnus had already ascended to daemonhood at that stage. He was as damned as you can be in the eyes of the Imperium already. And save what? His legion was already decimated to barely a 1000 warriors by the time he joined Horus, so sitting out and "manipulating events" really wouldn't have gotten him anywhere, except more distrust from others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Indirectly it is. If Horus hadn't turned traitor, then the Sons wouldn't have been decimated by the Wolves for the reason they were. Regardless of whether the Sons would have been destroyed later by the flesh-change, or by breaking the Edict of Nikaea, I'm baffled by how quickly they accepted their lot. They may have been fucked before the Heresy, but Horus turning was the actual fucking, so to speak.
Yes, Horus turning influenced what happened to them. But the fact is that Horus could have turned without the Sons falling in the process. It was the arrogance of Magnus that ultimately was their downfall. It was Magnus' choice in the end to disobey the Emperor's decree and use sorcery. And you are also ignoring the fact that chaos had been manipulating both the Wolves and the Sons, for several decades at least, to turn against each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Running from possible destruction to certain servitude? Isn't much of a bargain there. I don't know I just see the Thousand Sons as smarter than that. They were the only Legion out of 18 that had the broadest understanding of the Immaterium, and they allow themselves to become slaves to a higher power? After centuries of teaching and training in the arts they roll over? Madness.
Serving Tzeentch would in all likelyhood actually have been a far better alternative than being utterly destroyed by the Wolves. A promise of knowledge and power, without the constraints placed on them by the Imperium. Sounds like it could appeal to them. Also, it becomes clear in A Thousand Sons that they might know more than most of the others about the Warp, but that they really only know the bare minimum themselves. Even Magnus only fully realised the true nature of the warp in the end when it was too late to do anything about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Why piss off the traitors and sabotage them? Well, the Galaxy was in the predicament it was in because of Horus' fall, and Magnus always held in his teachings that Humanity should be enlightened and cradled and guided and the like. I would have thought, that as a reluctant traitor Magnus would have held true to at least a smidgeon of these teachings? Why hamper a potential ally? Because that potential ally was the reason, directly or indirectly, leading to the Legions almost destruction.

And no return to loyalty or redemption, but vengeance against the main culprits perhaps.
But remember that this isn't the same Magnus who had served the Imperium loyally. He was a broken shell of his former self, who had witnessed brother turn on brother and watched his world and legion burn for his mistakes. Also, like I mentioned earlier, he had already ascended to daemonhood, thus literally becoming a small part of Tzeentch. It's likely that this would have had some impact on his personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
There is actually more evidence right now for it being Horus who manipulated the Wolves, since it was actually stated in the earlier Heresy novels, than it being Valdor who, quite frankly, I haven't heard one convincing argument for.
Except like I said, The Outcast Dead changes things so that Horus was already known as a traitor by then. Hell, the Dropsite Massacre occurs within the timeframe of the book. The 7 legion fleet had already been sent to Isstvan when Magnus' warning arrives on Terra. And we know from A Thousand Sons that Valdor did have some influence. Magnus still notes it when he observes the Space Wolf fleet approaching Prospero. And why would Valdor be upset? Magnus not only broke the Nikaea decree (something we know Custodians are really anal about) but endangered the life of the Emperor in doing so (who is really Valdor's sole purpose for existence) and the entire safety of Terra as well. Not only that, but the chances are good that many Custodians died defending the breach Magnus had created from daemons. So there's plenty of reason for Valdor to be pissed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LongfangFenrika93 View Post
Magnus may well have liked Horus and Lorgar, but after learning that Horus and Lorgar were about to bring the Galaxy to the brink of annihilation, I think he may have reconsidered. And I'm pretty sure that Magnus could do more than simply wait to die.
But he did try to warn Horus when he found out what was going to happen. It didn't work. By the time he learned the whole truth he really was too far gone down the road of damnation to do anything other than what he did.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

Last edited by Chompy Bits; 08-04-12 at 04:54 PM.
Chompy Bits is offline  
post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 05:43 PM
Senior Member
 
Lost&Damned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 364
Reputation: 3
Default

@Solus
So loyal that he bargained with warp entities before the heresy (thats how he lost his eye)?

So loyal he went directly against the edicts of Nikea, the Emperor literally spelt it out for him, had a massive meeting with all the top tier of the imperium, his brothers warned him, his adopted farther warned him, not very loyal it seems.

The entire reason he used his powers (if you read the novel a thousand you would know) was because he wanted to prove the Emperor wrong, he wanted to use the fact he would "save" imperium using his psychic powers to overturn the edict of Nikea.

after he had destroyed the webway, imprisoned the emperor on his throne, almost destroyed Terra, threatened the Emperors well-being, obliterated the imperium's future, i think he deserved the ass raping Russ gave him.

there is also another VERY big reason Russ went all out, Russ really didnt want to do it, but its a massive spoiler, it shows why the Emperor was so harsh on magnus and why Russ came like a ton of bricks to Prospero
Lost&Damned is offline  
post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-04-12, 09:41 PM
Member
 
Apostle's Avatar
Apostle's Flag is: Ireland
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 84
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Commander Solus View Post
[TSons Fanboy Mode]

Woah, now. Magnus was probably the most loyal Primarch, with the most loyal Legion. He was utterly loyal to the Emperor; so much so that he even denied a direct order from the Emperor in order to try and warn him about the betrayal. He could have obeyed the Emperor and not used his powers, and then the Big E may not have been warned about Horus. But so devoted was Magnus to the Emperor that he was prepared to earn his wrath to help and serve him. If that's not loyal I don't know what is.

As for refusing to be killed by Russ... come on, man! Russ starts landing troops everywhere and killing Magnus' Legion and *still* Magnus doesn't get involved. He waits until they've pretty much been screwed over before thundering down and turning on god-mode. If Russ had just made a strike at Magnus, rather than the whole bloody planet first, he may actually have come quietly. Instead, the dirty great Space Wolf decided to raze Prospero and its Legion first to get Magnus upset. He's got the subtlety of a nuclear missile, that one.

[/fanboy]

I've yet to read Prospero Burns, but I'll have to keep a Thousand Sons nearby in case I ever need to brace myself for the heretical anti-TSons propaganda I'm likely to read within.
Read it if not at least for the little fluff on the Thousand Son's it does contain. I am rabidly again Russ and his puppies and all for Magnus and his badass Sorcerer's. But I can't deny that it's one of the best Horus Heresy Novels.

Last edited by Apostle; 08-04-12 at 09:45 PM.
Apostle is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome