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post #91 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 09:23 AM
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No it dosent put things in perspective, not to me at least. You can view Horus's feats in many ways just like Abaddon's.
Do explain.

Horus had everything. In spades. Yet Horus failed.
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post #92 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 10:56 AM
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Do explain.

Horus had everything. In spades. Yet Horus failed.
I suppose Horus did fight to get those things in the first place. It's not like it was just given to him and he still failed; it was quite an achievement that he managed to rend the Imperium in two, turn the Legions upon each other, turn his brothers against their father, and, as you said, get to Terra and hold the galaxy by the throat. He only fell short then because he needed to defeat the Emperor to truly become the Chaos Emperor of the Imperium, and he personally wasn't strong enough.

That's hardly a failure; the Emperor, I think we can all agree, is a damn hard nut to crack. He only got put on the Golden Throne because of his mercy; once he saw Horus was beyond saving he turned on slap-mode and erased Horus from existence. His soul didn't even get returned to the Warp!

So yes, Horus fell at the final hurdle. But that final hurdle was the greatest psyker in existence.
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post #93 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 11:42 AM
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I'm surprised no one has said this,

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He would win because he simply cannot die. Abaddon would just fail to harm him and eventually a bunch of lasgun bolts or a demo charge to the balls would put him down...

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post #94 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 12:37 PM
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I suppose Horus did fight to get those things in the first place. It's not like it was just given to him and he still failed; it was quite an achievement that he managed to rend the Imperium in two, turn the Legions upon each other, turn his brothers against their father, and, as you said, get to Terra and hold the galaxy by the throat. He only fell short then because he needed to defeat the Emperor to truly become the Chaos Emperor of the Imperium, and he personally wasn't strong enough.

That's hardly a failure; the Emperor, I think we can all agree, is a damn hard nut to crack. He only got put on the Golden Throne because of his mercy; once he saw Horus was beyond saving he turned on slap-mode and erased Horus from existence. His soul didn't even get returned to the Warp!

So yes, Horus fell at the final hurdle. But that final hurdle was the greatest psyker in existence.
Agreed and he did pull a full moron move by lowering his flagships void shields and inviting the most poweful Psyker, Dorn and Sanguinous to just head over there for a brawl. He was a genius tactician, yet in the end his obsession with showing his superiority and the need to challenge his father like that...kinda threw his chances out the window.
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post #95 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 01:16 PM
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Agreed and he did pull a full moron move by lowering his flagships void shields and inviting the most poweful Psyker, Dorn and Sanguinous to just head over there for a brawl. He was a genius tactician, yet in the end his obsession with showing his superiority and the need to challenge his father like that...kinda threw his chances out the window.
When you think about it, that was likely the most sound move he coukd have made. Remember that loyalist reinforcments were but days away, those were fresh troops that the traitor fleet (with the vast majority of its strength on Terra) would have had to contend with in addition to those loyalists already on Terra.

Had Horus kept his troops on the ground and used the fleet, both elements would have been robbed of strength with no gaurantee of success. By making an opening, Horus forced the Emperor to fight Horus on Horus terms, on a battlefield of the warmasters choosing, and only when Horus was ready for the confrontation. That the Emperor still won simply goes to show that Horus's gambit was simply not enough.

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post #96 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 01:38 PM
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I suppose Horus did fight to get those things in the first place.
Did he?

Horus was Warmaster, commander-in-chief of the Imperium's military. He had the initiative, the element of surprise and the time to initiate his plans. He had gathered support to the extent that a full-third of the Imperium's armies declared for him. He had as good as destroyed three Legions on the sands of Isstvan V and scattered several others to the wind. He was as good as given the advantages he possessed.

In The Crimson Fist, Dorn and Sigismund discuss the probability of the war reaching Terra:
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Sigismund echoed Dorn's frown. 'Horus has the initiative, we are the ones mired in confusion. He could cut us apart piece by piece, wait until we are so weak that there is no resistance left.'
Dorn looked sharply at Sigismund, but he could tell that his father had considered the same possibility.
'If it was Curze or Alpharius then perhaps, but they are not at the heart of this.'
...
'He will come here,' said Dorn softly. 'He will not stay out amongst the stars and bleed us to nothing. No, he is still Horus. The single spear thrust to the throat, the final killing blow. He will come here to finish this. One night we shall look up and see the heavens burning.'
Perhaps if he remained out amongst the stars he could have, as Sigismund suggested, triumphed by bleeding the loyalists dry. But he always intended to strike at Terra and his father, I can't imagine the alternative was ever an option in his mind.

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Agreed and he did pull a full moron move by lowering his flagships void shields and inviting the most poweful Psyker, Dorn and Sanguinous to just head over there for a brawl. He was a genius tactician, yet in the end his obsession with showing his superiority and the need to challenge his father like that...kinda threw his chances out the window.
We don't know the exact reason why his shields were lowered.



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post #97 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 01:52 PM
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No, Horus has almost no chance of victory. The time he still required to break the siege, especially with the Khan's hit and run tactics behind the lines would never be afforded to him. The Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines were on the way to Terra. In my opinion if Horus had adopted a "sit back and let them bleed out" he would have been resigned to being just like Abbaddon. The gamble to let the Emperor challenge him was the only option beside pulling back into the eye of terror to try again and again later. Obviously that wasn't something he wanted to try so he dropped the sheilds.
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post #98 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 02:01 PM
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No, Horus has almost no chance of victory. The time he still required to break the siege, especially with the Khan's hit and run tactics behind the lines would never be afforded to him. The Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines were on the way to Terra. In my opinion if Horus had adopted a "sit back and let them bleed out" he would have been resigned to being just like Abbaddon. The gamble to let the Emperor challenge him was the only option beside pulling back into the eye of terror to try again and again later. Obviously that wasn't something he wanted to try so he dropped the sheilds.
whats wrong with falling back to the eye?

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post #99 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 02:01 PM
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No, Horus has almost no chance of victory. The time he still required to break the siege, especially with the Khan's hit and run tactics behind the lines would never be afforded to him. The Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines were on the way to Terra. In my opinion if Horus had adopted a "sit back and let them bleed out" he would have been resigned to being just like Abbaddon. The gamble to let the Emperor challenge him was the only option beside pulling back into the eye of terror to try again and again later. Obviously that wasn't something he wanted to try so he dropped the sheilds.
If that is in reply to my post, I (or Sigismund) was not suggesting he remained in orbit above Terra whilst he bled the loyalists dry. But out amongst the galaxy.

What if, after Isstvan, Horus mustered his Legions and reinforced the Word Bearers assault on Calth? The death of Guilliman and destruction of the XIII would have only been the first step. If Horus remained out amongst the Imperium, whilst the loyalists remained mustered and paranoid on Terra, Horus would likely have triumphed by tearing the Imperium apart piece by piece, Legion by Legion.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
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post #100 of 126 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 03:14 PM
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If that is in reply to my post, I (or Sigismund) was not suggesting he remained in orbit above Terra whilst he bled the loyalists dry. But out amongst the galaxy.

What if, after Isstvan, Horus mustered his Legions and reinforced the Word Bearers assault on Calth? The death of Guilliman and destruction of the XIII would have only been the first step. If Horus remained out amongst the Imperium, whilst the loyalists remained mustered and paranoid on Terra, Horus would likely have triumphed by tearing the Imperium apart piece by piece, Legion by Legion.
That's what I am thinking. I also think fleeing (there wouldnt have been much of an immediate chase after the assault on Terra) and going to say, find and hunt down the Lion or Russ. Take them out, then return. He had more Primarch's at his disposal, and for sure more deadly ones. (IMO).

Also Horus would have had more backup coming, though it would not have arrived before the Emperor's. If the full might of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion along with their Primarchs. In order for that to work however, at least one or two out of The Lion, Roboute and Russ would have to be taken out of the picture.
Go back and crush Terra.
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