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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Apostle View Post

I think the 'act of' feeling a certain way may fuel them, but not near as much as those who act with their chosen Chaos God in mind. That also brings up a question about Tzeentch. If things just happen to change, and he gets more powerful...yea I just don't buy that. He would not need to do anything what-so-ever. Things are always changing, on a literally constant second by second basis.
regarding Nurgle:

humans who suffer so acutely from a fear of death, perhaps the oldest fear of that species. While Nurgle is the God of death and decay, to be certain, he is also the God of rebirth. After all, decay is simply one part of the cycle of life, without which no new life could grow. In the same way, Nurgle is also the God of perseverance and survival. While those who wish to spread decay and corruption are certainly amongst his followers, there are also those who wish to endure, to become tough enough to handle the difficulties and opportunities presented by an uncaring universe. Many of those affected by Nurgle's poxes usually turn to him in order to escape the pain caused by sickness and disease.

regarding Tzeentch:

Tzeentch exerts his influence in the mortal realm through subtle manipulation and devious ploys. The victims of his corruption are Sorcerers drawn by the promise of forbidden knowledge; scholars who seeks knowledge at all costs; politicians lured by the power knowledge provides to outmaneuver their opponents. Tzeentch's true power is sorcery, and as all sorcery flows from the font of the Immaterium, so too is Tzeentch the master of that twisted, chaotic medium of psychic energy. Tzeentch embodies mortals' tendency towards mutability and change, the drive to evolve and manipulate. This spirit is present in the essence of every living creature from the first division of cells in the womb to the ultimate craving for survival
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 06:48 PM
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I disagree, the warp exists and is fueled by the existence of mortal life but the Chaos Gods require worship to sustain themselves you need to kill in the name of khorne or one of his countless demons with the belief that your killing is holy worship to the god of blood otherwise the gods wouldnt've been starved by the great crusade and wouldnt've joined forces to stop them, the crusade should've empowered the gods to pornographic levels but it did the opposite..

Killing for the sake of killing and/or to worship a demon fuels Khorne but killing for another purpose with no warp entity in mind wont give anything to khorne.
i disagree, there is no evidence that the Great crusade in anyway significantly weakened the gods, the crusade was but a means to an end , the end being the webway and the advent of an enlightened humanity, with the guidance of the Emperor and throughout countless years, the Emperor would curb Humanities wanton lust for war, its indulgence in excess etc... thereby weakening the gods, the great crusade was just to unify everyone under his Aegis.

Think of the warp as paint, pure white, that is its natural form, then with creation of psychic races the paint gained color, each color represented an emotion the weaker emotions had correspondingly weaker colors (lasting for a short time), the stronger emotions have a stronger color (lasting for a longer time), if a berserk loyalist space marine killed heretics and spilt their blood in a ravenous blood crazed manner, regardless of his intentions it would paint the warp red, since its a powerful emotion its a dark crimson, in a similar way a bloodletter of khorne decapitates his enemies for the the pleasure of the blood god painting the warp red, different intentions yet both still fuel the gods, they are emotion given form, they are excess (because stronger emotions last longer and are more powerful).

before the birth of khorne, slaanesh and the others, no one actively worshipped them, yet they came into being, no one said "oh yeah this is for the blood god" they just killed and indulged in excess and carnal pleasures, as Rems said they coalesce from raw emotion not worship.

if the above sounds retarded im sorry, i have a fever.

Last edited by Lost&Damned; 08-03-12 at 06:53 PM.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Lost&Damned View Post
regarding Nurgle:

humans who suffer so acutely from a fear of death, perhaps the oldest fear of that species. While Nurgle is the God of death and decay, to be certain, he is also the God of rebirth. After all, decay is simply one part of the cycle of life, without which no new life could grow. In the same way, Nurgle is also the God of perseverance and survival. While those who wish to spread decay and corruption are certainly amongst his followers, there are also those who wish to endure, to become tough enough to handle the difficulties and opportunities presented by an uncaring universe. Many of those affected by Nurgle's poxes usually turn to him in order to escape the pain caused by sickness and disease.

regarding Tzeentch:

Tzeentch exerts his influence in the mortal realm through subtle manipulation and devious ploys. The victims of his corruption are Sorcerers drawn by the promise of forbidden knowledge; scholars who seeks knowledge at all costs; politicians lured by the power knowledge provides to outmaneuver their opponents. Tzeentch's true power is sorcery, and as all sorcery flows from the font of the Immaterium, so too is Tzeentch the master of that twisted, chaotic medium of psychic energy. Tzeentch embodies mortals' tendency towards mutability and change, the drive to evolve and manipulate. This spirit is present in the essence of every living creature from the first division of cells in the womb to the ultimate craving for survival
Thanks, that does really help my understanding of Nurgle. I do get Tzeentch(at least what your explained). But the problem I see with him, is why is he not the most powerful over Khorne. This is assuming that these deities don't really need worship to maintain and grow in power. The Chaos Sorcerer's of course, but does it benefit from change, period. Or does he just rule over it? Because if change is a way for him to gain power. There is an infinate and constant amount of change.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-03-12, 07:07 PM
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well he is meant to be a paradox, he sends his emissaries to destroy one another just as much as he does, he has no goal, he just plots and schemes, for literally no reason, he is just as likely to destroy his allies as he is his enemies, he can never achieve any ultimate aim, because of he did then that would the end of ambition and so his end.

Its not, at least to my understanding, change in everything just the desire for change, domination and the mutability, evolution, desire for knowledge of sentient beings, not change, period.

again sorry if im not coherent i have a fever.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tzeentch#.UBwg3hx9CP0
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tzeentch

read these links.

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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-05-12, 12:16 AM
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As i have always understood it the chaos gods are fueld by certain specific emotions and anre themselves the extreme ends of the spectrum. Korne is fueld by rage, no need to explain why he is as he is. Tzeench is fueld by hope and himself embodies hope taken to such a degree that it becomes a constant need for change. Nurgle feeds from despair and is himself embodied by despair of such depth that it becomes a need for stasis and lack of change. Slaneesh is lust.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-05-12, 01:29 AM
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Gotta love the eldar. The only race to party a god into existence

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-05-12, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
Thanks, that does really help my understanding of Nurgle. I do get Tzeentch(at least what your explained). But the problem I see with him, is why is he not the most powerful over Khorne. This is assuming that these deities don't really need worship to maintain and grow in power. The Chaos Sorcerer's of course, but does it benefit from change, period. Or does he just rule over it? Because if change is a way for him to gain power. There is an infinate and constant amount of change.
At one time he was the most powerful, at times during the great game he rises to preeminence again. He embodies change but just because there is a lot of it doesn't make him powerful since change can come in many flavors. With so many schemes and so many changes sometimes Tzeentch kinda bites his own tail. The true person to watch is slaanesh. S/he is not merely a god of lust as some have suggested but the god of EXCESS. That being the case anything taken to an extreme fuels it. Murderous rage, hateful scheming, fear of death, all these feed slaanesh as well.
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-05-12, 05:26 AM
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My guess would be that while emotion fuels Chaos, direct worship allows the beings fed by emotion to affect the materium. Without worship the Chaos Gods still exist but are trapped within the warp, unable to influence the 'real' world.

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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-05-12, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Rems View Post
No your missing the point Longfang. You don't have to actively worship the Chaos Gods to empower them. You don't have to pray to Khorne, merely reveling in the joy of battle or taking pride in your martial skills is enough.

As to the purpose of the Imperial Truth i believe it's the best solution the Emperor could effect. You can't stop people from having emotions, but you can stop them from believing in deities and worshiping them (or at least attempt to and prevent widescale religiousness). It's better to have people unknowingly powering the Dark Gods as a side effect of existing, than having them preaching cults. Without the knowledge of the Gods and daemon's you can't summon daemons and such.

It's linked to the Emperor's attempts to build an Imperial Webway, it's making humanity less reliant on the warp and Chaos and giving Chaos less avenues to affect humanity. With no one to summon daemons and no ships traveling the warp there's a lot less Chaos can do to humans, it's limiting the damage and influence of Chaos.
^ Pretty much this.

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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-05-12, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury View Post
My guess would be that while emotion fuels Chaos, direct worship allows the beings fed by emotion to affect the materium. Without worship the Chaos Gods still exist but are trapped within the warp, unable to influence the 'real' world.
That doesn't seem to be the case.

It is well documented that the Chaos Gods were born from "thoughts and emotions", rather than worship or servitude. But the entire purpose of worshipping a Chaos God is to gain a fraction of its attention and hopefully acquire gifts by doing so, with the ultimate gift being immortality. Simply praying to a Chaos God will not attract its attention, remember; "for the most part the Dark Gods care nothing for the affairs of mortals". It is only by affecting the "eternal flow of emotion across aeons" that will attract their attention, and practically, that is what worshipping a Chaos God constitutes: performing acts that benefit the Chaos God by promotion of their particular emotion. The World Eaters don't form prayer circles, they shed the maximum amount of blood possible in dedication to their patron, thus protecting and furthering the emotional output of anger and rage. The Death Guard don't form prayer circles, they spread their plagues and diseases throughout reality, thus protecting and furthering the emotional output of despair. And so on.

What I am getting at, is that worship of a Chaos God is only an extension of how a Chaos God protects and gains its power. The act of worship alone does not empower the Chaos Gods: "A Chaos God can only grow in power through the actions and thoughts of mortals."

Even without direct and intentional worship though, the Chaos Gods can still interact with the material.

(all quotes taken from Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Daemons)

In regards to the Imperial Truth, it was simply another system of control. Countless human civilisations were overrun with fear and superstition, many had even been preyed on by daemons and other warp entities throughout the Age of Strife. False belief in the divine was a tried and tested method by which entire civilisations could open themselves up to Chaos corruption. By enforcing a militaristic form of atheism, it became much easier to shun the warp and it's powers on a galactic scale. Without witless humans unknowingly corrupting themselves and embracing Chaos, it would no doubt have affected the influence of the Chaos Gods, even if it didn't directly affect their power source.



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Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 08-05-12 at 01:50 PM.
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