If Guilliman died before implementing the Codex Astartes? - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-18-12, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
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Default If Guilliman died before implementing the Codex Astartes?

I always think things like this are really interesting. There are so many things that could have changed the setting.

Anyway, what would have been the outcome if Guilliman had died on Calth (in orbit) or something like that? The entire Imperium would be different in terms of Space Marine deployment. I really can't see it lasting if had died.

Guilliman really was the only thing that held the Imperium together, would the other brothers be able to do as good a job? And would the Legions have remained or would someone else break down the Legions?
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 02:39 AM
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Without Guilliman, as much as it pains me to say it, I honestly can't see the Imperium survivng without Guilliman. At best, it would dissolve into a thousand Ultramars. With each legion defending a portion of space and being essentially independent states, because no one but Guilliman would have been able to break them apart. Terra would likely still be the center of humanity, but the Inquisition would have little power, the GK wouldn't have as much authority over other marines.

It's also entirely possible that the Imperium would have completely dissolved into a miasma of warring factions all trying to seize control quickly destroyed itself.

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Yup, that sounds about right. The only faction who are a bigger bunch of backstabbers than the Imperium are the Eldar (and this is debatable as the Eldar only stab OTHER factions in the back).
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 06:14 AM
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I personally think Dorn would have stepped up and tried to manage things.

We probably would have ended up with a more militant Imperium (hard to imagine). Major planets would be bristling fortresses.

The Legions would probably still be around. I would imagine worlds were be less interdependent and more self-sufficient than they are now.

Too many "what ifs" for me to give a solid answer.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 07:40 AM
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Actually with Guilliman death Dorn might not be around. I think it was Guilliman and the Ultra marines who helped out the Imperial Fist that was getting slaughter in the trap that the Iron Warriors set up in. Correct me if I am wrong.

If Guilliman did died . It would fall on Khan , Corax , Russ , or Vulkan to step up to plate. The Lion was knocked out from his battle with Luther.

It's hard to say what will happened but I think without Guilliman the Imperium would of fall post heresy. Most likely small independent states would of formed. What ever legion that was around would still try to fight to keep it together and most likely would end up protecting there location.

It's hard to say which direction it would of gone.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 09:17 AM
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Too toooo many what if's to even consider answering this..basically re-writes a lot of current 40k.


"The difference between gods and daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time." - Aurelian Lorgar
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 12:32 PM
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As Mordin would say, "too many variables".

Still, if we (continuing with Mordin) ignore the "little pictures" and look at the "big picture", I could see Dorn taking over and trying to hold things together. He seems more traditionalist to me though (hence his opposition to the breaking down of the Legions) and I think the Imperium would have survived for a time, but slowly outer fringes would be lost and the Imperium would not be a strong. I don't think it'd die altogether, though.

What happened to Dorn anyway?

Give a man a match, and he's warm for a day.

Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life!

Cato Marquand
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Farseer Darvaleth View Post

What happened to Dorn anyway?
read it all in the doctors voice agin ffs, still it somehow makes you sound more credible.

As for Dorn, he died,he died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking a Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter.

however since the index states that the eldar (craftworld Ulthwe) stopped any reinforcements from aiding him in his time of need, i suspect something went on behind the scenes, and since the ratio of traitor:Loyalist primarchs is already heavily lopsided i assume that the fluff will be changed and good old Dorn will be back and in fighting condition in no time, this however represents a bit of a conundrum for me as my 2 favorite primarchs are Dorn and Perturabo.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 02:41 PM
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Hopefully the Imperium would survive and we would have a lot less Ultramarines in our lives. Just my two cents on that.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 07:42 PM
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If Guilliman died, the real question should be, "Who are the 40K poster boys?" The codex wouldn't be around so the Ultrasmurfs couldn't be the best.

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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 07-19-12, 11:01 PM
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I personally see it falling upon Dorn or The Lion. If Guilliman had died on Calth then Dorn and El'Jonson might not have made their decisions to travel to the Iron Cage and Caliban respectively -- or at least not in the same manner or at the same time they did.

Likely the Lion, if he took command, would have sent some of his legionnaires to Caliban -- found it riddled with Chaos and may have just left it to Dorn to crack open and take apart. The Lion had that kind of detachment from things. Or he my have charged in like he did and died.

In my honest opinion -- I see Dorn taking command of the Imperium and installing The Lion as the new "Warmaster". Therefore the Legions may have still been broken down to some extent, considering the Lion's past with the "Orders" of Caliban. Though its just as likely that Dorn's influence would have prevented this and the Legions would have remained.

Out of the remaining Primarchs -- Khan, Corax, Vulkan, Russ, Dorn, and Lion I think its more than likely the Imperium would have been divided into six different segmentums (similar to the ones of today with Ultima being smaller). The legions assigned to these areas would be the ones who defended them. Of coarse, over time, the Primarchs would die/vanish randomly for no apparent reason -- and then we'd just have big-ass chapters.


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The chaos gods abandoned Horus most likely because they saw the can of whoop ass coming their way and wanted out of the way so as not to get fucked up!
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