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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-18-12, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
He could've rebuked Lorgar less harshly. I believe a less harsh rebuke would've been more effective. The Emperor's tactless approach had the opposite effect. He could've tried to win over a wayward son with a bit of tact. Instead, he ended up bitchslapping Lorgar into the dirt in front of Guilliman...really, that was the Emperor's best idea?
I don't think he could have rebuked Lorgar less harshly. Firstly, from the Emperor's perspective the destruction of Monarchia was hardly barbaric; the XIII evacuated the city and there would have been minimal civilian casualties. All the Emperor really did was destroy a (largely) uninhabited city, gather the XVII Legion to inform them of their failure, and attach a contingent of Custodians to monitor the XVII's reincorporation into the Great Crusade. Lorgar's reaction (taking the Pilgrimage) was obviously unexpected, on the face of things Lorgar and the Word Bearers rejoined the Great Crusade and outperformed every other Legion (even the Luna Wolves, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists) in the latter stages of the Great Crusade, so from the Emperor's perspective: job done.

The Emperor had to issue a strong public show of purpose, had the Emperor simply had a quiet word with Lorgar on the side, would Lorgar have listened? Would the Emperor's decree have passed down to Lorgar's Legion effectively without such a public display? Probably not. Lorgar was the one in the wrong, he was the one contradicting the Emperor's Imperial Truth and threatening the new order, he was the one Primarch who had failed in his purpose, why should the Emperor simply had a quiet word with him? Lorgar deserved to be humbled.

Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
Again, I don't see why the Emperor likes to keep his sons ignorant. I suppose you could argue it's a necessary ignorance for the Imperium's good...but really? Horus feels abandoned. He's the Emperor's favoured son. Give him a bit of information. Heck, give him false/partially false information...as long as Horus doesn't feel neglected by his father.
Perhaps he deemed his project on Terra to be too precious to trust more people than it was necessary to. After all, Chaos had exposed and 'abducted' the Primarchs, who knows how far each one was effected. Horus may have unwittingly gave such information to the wrong people (Erebus?) which could have had grave consequences.

Besides that, why should the Emperor have thought Horus would have felt abandoned? As I said, Horus had taken "overall strategic command" of the Great Crusade on several occasions before and a reunion between the two would have obviously been inevitable at some point. Horus himself says to Loken in Horus Rising that he realised the grave importance of the Emperor's task (he believed the Emperor was trying to unlock the secrets of the warp: roughly accurate), there for countless other reasons for Horus's fall beyond feelings of abandonment, in the grand scheme of things you could even argue such feelings were only a minor part in Horus's fall from grace.

Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
Off the top of my head: perhaps explain to Magnus why he should not try to contact the Emperor telepathically (at least a partial explanation...i.e. the consquences to the Imperium of disobeying that order). Again, the Emperor loves to keep his sons in the dark. Look how that turns out.
IIRC Magnus was aware of the webway and of the Emperor's intentions with it. He would also have been aware of the delicate nature of the Emperor's project. He shouldn't have needed a reason not to contact the Emperor psychically, especially following Nikaea.

Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
Curze was performing his role perfectly. The Emperor needed people who wouldn't flinch at the prospect of doing dirty jobs (Russ was one of them). The Emperor could've shown a bit of appreciation. Instead he seemed to have driven Curze farther away from him.
What appreciation did he show the Wolves? Was it more than he shown the World Eaters or Night Lords? Perhaps. But, whilst Curze believed (perhaps deluded himself into believing) that he was performing the Emperor's will, who is to say that is true? It seems evident that the Night Lords overstepped the bounds on numerous occasions, hence Curze's arrest for deportation to Terra and subsequent attack on Rogal Dorn (and the Phoenix Guard) and flight into exile.

Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
This I think was the main problem. They matured so quickly physically that their emotional maturity never had a chance to catch up.
Personally, I think their emotional capacity was solely due to nurture rather than nature. The Primarchs were products of their homeworlds, if they had been raised by the Emperor on Terra it is quite probable they would have been much more stable individuals.

Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 07-18-12 at 11:05 AM.
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-18-12, 05:05 PM
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i when i read the HH books i can't help but have a chuckle at how dysfunctional the emperor and primarchs can be with each other , i believe the whole creation of the primarchs may have been a diversionary tactic by the emperor to keep the chaos gods distracted while he completed the webway project , the primarchs all seem to have had opposites to each other where tensions would always arise , maybe he knew the heresy was going happen which would wipe out half of the primarchs and future potential rivals and the others appear to be missing and presumably out of reach of making any impact on the future plans of the emperor , remember there are 2 primarchs missing II & XI who knows what they did to be dealt with that way , one or both may have a part to play yet in the future maybe the chaos gods were correct and the emperor does want to be a god if he reappears in the 40k universe the whole imperium believe he is a god not a bad job if you can get it eh! thousands of space marines at your beck and call with no pesky primarchs to cause problems , i agree magnus would probably have been locked into the throne at some point to power it if he hadn't destroyed it and ruined the emperors plans . anyway i have rambled on enough and i hope it all makes a little sense
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-18-12, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Personally, I think their emotional capacity was solely due to nurture rather than nature. The Primarchs were products of their homeworlds, if they had been raised by the Emperor on Terra it is quite probable they would have been much more stable individuals.
I do agree with this as well. The fact that their emotional development happened under the watch of regular humans meant that they inherited the same emotional flaws inherent in normal humans. Not quite the superior perfect beings the Emperor had in mind. That's why I personally think the primarchs were all flawed from the moment of abduction. It really was the perfect way for chaos to defeat the Emperor by using humanity's own weaknesses to influence and shape its greatest beings.

What I meant to go in line with this was, they were nurtured by humans and thus picked up their flaws. But even a normal human has several years to mature to adulthood and learn to control themselves better. The primarchs didn't even have that luxury, rapidly maturing as they did. Add in the fact that they are virtual demigods with no equals other than each other and the role the Emperor set for them and those flaws that would possibly be manageable in humans take on far greater and more troubling and dangerous proportions.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-05-12, 10:44 AM
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I've always viewed the Emperor as being close to the conceptual embodiment of Nietzche's "Superman". In brief; someone who wasn't concerned with individual morality, but the body-whole.

He's a grand visionist who's only concern is trying to keep humanity from falling into the clutches of Chaos. The Greater Good is his paradigm. "Petty" individual concerns don't matter to him, which of course can make him look like a cruel bastard.

He was required to be cruel.
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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-06-12, 12:31 PM
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The one I do agree with is Angron. The Emperor was a fool to take Angron away from his people on the battlefield. I have no doubt Angron simply never liked the Emperor, probably hated him more than any Primarch. Even when he was 'loyal'

I can also see a little bit with the Lorgar disciplinary action. He did not have to use Guilliman as the instrument to bring Malchador to bitch him out. I mean the Emperor just did not have a lot of tact. Just let him believe your some kind of God you moron! (IMO) I mean now half the Imperium believes, or claims to believe he is anyway. The Emperor's foresight is either flawed, or he knew these things would happen anyway.
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-06-12, 10:06 PM
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I think one issue the Emperor had was the challenge with foresight: at the time you perform an act, it could appear to be the exact combination needed to correct whatever problem you see coming down the pike. Unfortunately, your act in itself changes the nature of the future, so you're left with the consequences and then have to react. The Emperor is trying to thread a galactic needle, knowing as has been implied, that his target is infinitessimally small with little room for error... then having galactic-scale beings on the other side of the board trying to knock you off kilter at every turn.

I also like BlackGuard's observation... superbeings that never moved past being unruly teens. On the other hand, the Primarchs did have several hundred years under their belt by the time the HH came along, how long should the Emperor have waited for these over-hyped 'failures to launch'?

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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-02-12, 05:06 PM
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Being hugely powerful and intelligent are hardly things that make you perfect. How I see it, people need to be subjugated to life's miseries and overcome their flaws in order to learn and grow into something respectable. If you're just handed godlike powers without having done a single thing to have earned them you're bound to become a failure. The Emperor was quite stupid IMO for failing to foresee this.

The Emperor created the Imperial administratum to make people learn to govern themselves without the aid of "godlike" being like himself. Thus, the Primarchs being raised by humans would therefore actually be a perfect intermediary step for his plan. Yet he failed to utilizes this in any way.

I also think the argument that a such a perfect and magnificent being can't relate to ordinary humans is extremely fallacious. Even if he can't emotionally connect with people's feelings he's spend more than enough time to be able to rationally deduce what people are feeling. That's why most psychopaths are actually quite good at blending in.

As such the Emperor failed on every level conceivable.
He failed to create the perfect being he originally meant to
He failed to utilize the Primarch's "flawed" and human qualities as a means to better relate to mankind in general.

It's quite clear that the Emperor was nothing more than an ordinarily smuck like you and me with the same emotional flaws. He just had lots of knowledge and godlike powers (something he too was born with and didn't even had to earn). He's actually quite a pathetic figure if you think about it. Even whilst having unfathomably powers he still made the same mistakes we do, which actually makes him less than ordinary human beings since they actually have an excuse for their failures.
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