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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-12-12, 03:56 AM Thread Starter
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Default Lorgar not sure whether primarchs can die?

Read this post on another forum...really interesting. What do you guys think?

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So, have listened to Butchers Nails about 5 times throught now, and something struck me on here after reading another post in the BN thread.

Lorgar is corrected by Angron that Primarchs CAN die, after he was theorising about it, using Ferrus as the example. Now, this may be massive conjecture, but this would mean that 2nd and 11th hadn't been killed in the traditional sense, otherwise it would have come as no surprise to Lorgar.

I know we get a lot of threads about 2nd and 11th, but thought this was interesting.
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-12-12, 04:43 AM
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Another theory is that they were gotten rid of in a way Lorgar wasn't there to see.

Magnus talks to Mortarion about how the last time 9 brothers gathered together was for the (supposed) extermination of one of their brother Legions. Mortarion tells Magnus to be quiet because they were supposed to never speak of it again.

Perhaps this all happened before Lorgar was found? Or after he was found, but for one reason or another, Lorgar wasn't able to make it to the destruction of the 2nd/11th's Legion and Primarch.

To be fair, though, I haven't listened to Butcher's Nail. I'm getting on it now.
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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-12-12, 04:58 AM
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I haven't listened to Butcher's Nail but it makes sense that Lorgar doesn't know as I imagine the 2nd and 11th legions records were wiped from existence for whatever reason and even the primarchs wouldn't know.
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-12-12, 06:23 AM
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The conversation is very...odd. I'll write out the conversation here. They're talking about Angron's butcher's nail.

Lorgar: They [the Butcher's nail] can not be removed without killing you. I have no intention of trying. Even if it is possible for us to die, you will die with those wretched things in your skull.

Angron: You know we can die. Ferrus is dead.

Lorgar: I keep forgetting that. Events are proceeding so very quickly, are they not?
~~~~~

I find it very odd that Lorgar isn't unsure about Primarchs being able to be killed, while just two sentences before he says that removing the Butcher's nail will kill Angron.
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-12-12, 06:37 AM
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Interesting. I remember reading in The First Heretic, I believe, about when Argel Tal and some of his marines are taken to the past into the vaults where the primarchs were kept in their pods. One of them mentioned something about ending the 2nd and 11th and saving a whole lot of trouble in the future and saving Lorgar a lot of grief.

I'd imagine, they possibly weren't killed. Just banished to some god, oop sorry, I mean Emperor-forsaken place that no one knows about besides the Emperor himself.

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-12-12, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by DeathJester921 View Post
I'd imagine, they possibly weren't killed. Just banished to some god, oop sorry, I mean Emperor-forsaken place that no one knows about besides the Emperor himself.
If that was true, they must have done something absolutely crazy.

After all, the Emperor recalled the Night Lords to supress Horus and his 4 Legions. Keep in mind the Night Lords just blew up their planet and were under censor for being absolutely crazy.

So if the missing Legions were hiding in some corner you would have thought the Emperor would have used them? Unless they did something even crazier.
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-12-12, 08:02 AM
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I've not heard the audio drama, but do you think it has anything to do with Lorgars interpretation of death?

Hes a religious zealot, to him people have souls, therefore an implied afterlife. Is he implying that the nail has become such a part of Angron that even his soul now carries the scars? The conversation also implies that Ferrus's soul still is floating around, and would add credence that when the emperor killed Horus he obliterated his soul.
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-12-12, 08:02 AM
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Like try and rape a load of silent sisters? They wouldn't have been heard...


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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 07:40 PM
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Is he implying that the nail has become such a part of Angron that even his soul now carries the scars?
Is there any doubt of that? Lorgar grew to like the Nails, he felt comfort in unrepressed rage. That's some serious spiritual damage in my opinion.

I still don't understand how they even worked, a Primarch's brain doesn't work like a human's. At best they should have had some effect other than their designed effect, at worst they should have left him a vegetable. It makes me wonder if there was some Chaotic influence here. The gladiator planet is certainly Khornate in appearance, though it is not explicitly said to be Khornate in actuality.
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-14-12, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randian View Post
Is there any doubt of that? Lorgar grew to like the Nails, he felt comfort in unrepressed rage. That's some serious spiritual damage in my opinion.

I still don't understand how they even worked, a Primarch's brain doesn't work like a human's. At best they should have had some effect other than their designed effect, at worst they should have left him a vegetable. It makes me wonder if there was some Chaotic influence here. The gladiator planet is certainly Khornate in appearance, though it is not explicitly said to be Khornate in actuality.
In the audio book, Lorgar says that the nails had reshaped Angron's brain's cartography.

Maybe the slavers snagged him young enough that his brain matured and grew around the nails? Like how some landscappers grow trees around molds?
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