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post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 12:36 AM
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So 'Purge the Xenos' no longer applies.
Deathwatch allied with kroot.
Don't get me wrong, i liked the allies rules when they were created with fluff in mind. I am a bit wary of this fluff buchery for the sake of it. Necrons and tyranids, should never be able to ally, it is against their basic code. Orks and eldar have had allies in the fluff before and i see no problem with those but personally i think this is getting out of hand.

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post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 01:03 AM
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The Black Templars being "grudging allies" with half the Xenos is hilarious.

It's probably a game balance reason over fluff, I think.
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post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 01:08 AM
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For me it mostly comes from a "enemy of my enemy is my friend" when it comes to the Evil factions. It's not so much a reason of why they would ally and more a reason they would not shoot each other for a short period of time.
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post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 01:14 AM
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It's not so much a reason of why they would ally and more a reason why they would not shoot each other for a short period of time.
Pretty much sums it up. I think the use of the phrase "allies" has given people a misconception as to how this new phenomenon was intended (lore wise).



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post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 01:28 AM
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So 'Purge the Xenos' no longer applies.
Deathwatch allied with kroot.
Don't get me wrong, i liked the allies rules when they were created with fluff in mind. I am a bit wary of this fluff buchery for the sake of it. Necrons and tyranids, should never be able to ally, it is against their basic code. Orks and eldar have had allies in the fluff before and i see no problem with those but personally i think this is getting out of hand.
First off with the new Necrons there is nothing stopping them from allying with other powers. The new Necron Codex even describes a Dynasty that has enslaved a human world so they could actually raise a human army represented on TT by the IG. That's just one example of how they could ally with another power. Second the chart is a simple guide for the TT game. The fluff behind these battlefield alliances are left open to us. In fact in non-tournament games you can disregard that chart entirely. Last year a couple friends and I had a series of 2vs2 games with a SM/IG force facing a Tau/IG. The fluff behind these games were that an Imperial world had openly defected to the Tau Empire and a force of SM/IG were sent to bring them in line. Obviously we didn't have this chart but if it had we would have changed the Tau/IG relationship to Brothers in Arms for these games.

People need to remember that we have a degree of control over things here. If you want to have some team games where the alliance ratings are different from the chart then change them. Really it will only be enforced in tournament games.

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post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 02:28 AM
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I can see the insertion of a house rule for those bizarre alliance that don't seem to fit (orc/SM and the like). Some alliance fit "enemy of my enemy" in which the end of the alliance is civil. Necrons and Imperial Guard would be an example. The battle ends, both enemies walk away, warily. Alternatively, some alliances feature two forces in which one is using the other or one force is particularly bloodthirsty in combat or one force is using the cover of another to get things done. This third example would allow forces like space marines or necrons or eldar or dark eldar or tau to ally with tyranids.

Your main space marine force brings a detachment of tyranids. The fluff says these bugs represent a portion of a larger force overtaking the planet. Your main force is deployed ahead of the tyranid vanguard to evacuate a high ranking official on the planet who is being held by the chaos marines already there prior to the invasion.

The special rule would be "beginning in turn 2, any time a detachment squad consolidates (be it after regrouping or assault victory) and there are no enemy units in 12" make a leadership test. If the squad fails, they notice their nearest "allies" and hunt them out. They must move as fast as possible and assault as soon as possible. They are no longer under the owning players direct control. The squad must test for this each turn until they destroy their prey or their prey is more than 24" away at the time of the test."

Its not the easiest rule to read and I imagine can be written easier but this would mean that, if you brought an ally who fits into this niche (tyranids, orks, demons, based on who the main army is) you run the risk of losing control over them in a "fluffy fashion". Its also possible to play your army in a way that would avoid this. It might be a decent house rule to allow Tyranids to ally without actually being allies.

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post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 02:58 AM
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Tyranids should be included in this chart imo. With mind control and genestealer infiltration in their background I see no reason why they couldnt ally with orks at the very least.


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post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 03:52 AM
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Tyranids should be included in this chart imo. With mind control and genestealer infiltration in their background I see no reason why they couldnt ally with orks at the very least.
In SoulGazers original post, the chart that came up from the link does have a Tyranid column/row and it shows they can't actually ally with anyone, so I'm unsure where this piece of the discussion is coming from. On the other hand, it makes complete sense that a 5-6 generation genestealer colony could begin to infiltrate an IG regiment... it's not technically an alliance, but I like the manipulated friend track for the tabletop.

For the Necron, my entire concept up to this point is they really are devoid of personality or politics as such, so the entire new paradigm of them being a race with a broader/deeper character than just a killing machine takes a little getting used to.

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post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Why not? The new alliance system doesn't claim the Greenskins and the Daemonic hordes are suddenly comrades-in-arms. But Greenskins do commonly act as mercenaries, and as such have fought alongside Chaos hordes on numerous occasions. Or perhaps the Greenskins (or at least their command structure) have become corrupted, or perhaps they just happen to find themselves in the same theatre of war fighting against the same enemy, and intend to destroy each other after their mutual enemy is destroyed. Or perhaps the Greenskins are being manipulated by Tzeentchian daemons into the conflict. There are numerous reasons to justify a temporary "unholy alliance" (which I assume is the weakest form of alliance) between the factions.

I completely agree with you that players can justify any alliance. My point is thats its ridiculous that we have to go to such silly lenghts to do so.

IMO, I think GW just said Fuck It, let em all be friends. Mo' money.

I like the fluff, and when I play, I try to imagine a reason for the two armies to fight. The new allies rule is gonna make my head hurt.

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post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Honestly, I don't see the Necron/Blood Angel phenomenon as contradictory to the current lore at all.
Current being the key word here. Before that Blood Angels/Necrons incident there was almost no fluff on the Space Marines having anything to with xenos. The very few exceptions being the odd cease-fire with eldar to defeat chaos. (exluding some wierdness from Rogue Trader days such as tigerius being half eldar for example).

Personally i have more difficultiy believing that Astartes would be willing to work alongside Necrons than Necrons alongside others. The new necrons are rational and self aware. They conduct themselves for the most part via a strict honour code. Given that i don't see it as impossible that occasionally individual necron lords would come to respect certain foes or be willing to treat them as they would a fellow necron they were in conflict with.

Astartes on the other hand are brain-washed children trained to kill. Most of them barely relate to humanity, let alone xenos, who they are sworn to destroy. It's a religious duty to cleanse the xenos. Only the most liberal, relate-able Space Marines would even be able to entertain the idea of working with xenos.

Has their motto changed now?

Cleanse the Xenos (except when they're friendly)
Burn the Witch (unless they apologise)
Purge the Heretic (or just give them a slap on the wrist)

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