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post #31 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-29-12, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
You've all lost the point of my thread. Your telling me there are seven Void Dragon shards like the one the Emperor faced. Go back and read what happened. Seven. So what's going on with them?
Can you direct me to where somebody mentioned a specific number of any shard?

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They on vacation? I'm saying that that thing is too powerful.The most powerful psyker in the history of the materium couldn't destroy a weakned fraction of the Void Dragon. He had to put together an elaborate prison with supernatural guardians to keep it contained.
A fraction of its mind, not its power. Remember, each shard still possesses the near unlimited power of its forebear, it is reasonable to assume that this would include their inherent resilience. The Dragon Shard was at a reduced mental capacity, not reduced power. You keep harping on about the thing being too powerful to make sense, ignoring our repeated answers that the shards DO NOT HAVE THE WIT TO USE THEIR FULL POTENTIAL. Their minds and memories are what was fractured remember? This was precisely the necons' plan, not to destroy them, but to make them more manageable.

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The C'tan, to my knowledge do not have the technology to create a prison like the one on mars. It's ridiculous enough to think the C'tan gave the Necrons the tech to destroy them but to imprison them as well would be ludicrous. The enemy they were both fighting were warp based and nothing like the C'tan, why would they give the Necrons tech to destroy or imprison them?
The necrons were capable of brilliant science even before the c'tan gave them further knowledge. It is not unfeasible to think they could modify certain technologies to better work on the c'tan. Remember the gk use tesseract labyrinths to imprison daemons? Maybe following the intervention of the eldar gods, the labyrinths were designed by the c'tan to imprison their enemies? Again, I wouldn't put it past the necrons to input their own innovations should it prove advantageous.

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The shard that was in Nightbringer was more believable. Weakened but still powerful, the Nightbringer had wasn't a night omnipotent fraction. I highly doubt that if even one of the Void Dragon's shards were to awaken or return, at what we saw it capable of in Mechanicum, anything in the Imperium or Necron forces would be able to stop it from taking out Mars's defenses and unite with the other shard there. Waaaay too powerful.
You're assuming it has the knowledge of being shattered into shards, or even knowledge of the necrons. This particular Dragon Shard seemed wholly obsessed with its defeat at the hands of the Emperor, and it even had trouble remembering that with clarity. Again, unlimited power means little under the restrictions of having such restricted knowledge of what it really is and what it can do.

The Dragon Shard would have been capable of warping the entire planet, reducing the Emperor to subatomic ash and bleeding the life from the Earth's sun. If it was a threat, it would have defended itself more vigorously. The fact that it didn't lends credence to its inability to perceive things on the scope it once could.


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post #32 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-29-12, 01:53 PM
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Why are we assuming that the Emperor wanted to destroy the Dragon (or shard)? By imprisoning it where and how he did, he ensured the rise of the Mechanicum, its affinity for technology, and possibly its relationship with the Imperium. That's a desirable outcome and a good reason _not_ to kill the thing.
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post #33 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-29-12, 08:59 PM
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Deadeye, you keep on talking about the Mars VD shard trying to reunite its other shards, ignoring that it specifically states in the C'tan Shard Codex entry that none of the shards even realize that they are shards.

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Necron Codex, Pg. 40, second paragraph

Whilst no individual C'tan Shard has full recall of the omnipotent creature it once was, each carries the personality and hubris of that far vaster and more puissant being.
So why would the Void Dragon Shard on Mars search out for its other Shard when it doesn't even realize that it is a fragment of something greater?

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post #34 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-03-12, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SoulGazer View Post
Another interesting thing to note, is that in Deliverence Lost, the Dragon cultist speaks about the cult in a way that makes it seem like it is very much alive. Then, in The Primarchs, a different techpriest says the cult is now defunct but that he was part of it at some point. Obviously there can't be that much of a gap in time between the two novels for the cult to have been destroyed, and also obviously they wouldn't have brought it up again if it didn't mean something.
Isn't it most likely that the techpriest in The Primarchs simply lied, and he was still part of the Cult? After all, what was he going to say, "Yes, I am still part of this heretical cult which worships an alien god (this in the time of the ultra-secular great crusade era) and wants to help it take over the galaxy."


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post #35 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-07-12, 06:35 PM
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A fraction of its mind, not its power. Remember, each shard still possesses the near unlimited power of its forebear, it is reasonable to assume that this would include their inherent resilience. The Dragon Shard was at a reduced mental capacity, not reduced power. You keep harping on about the thing being too powerful to make sense, ignoring our repeated answers that the shards DO NOT HAVE THE WIT TO USE THEIR FULL POTENTIAL. Their minds and memories are what was fractured remember? This was precisely the necons' plan, not to destroy them, but to make them more manageable.
No wit huh? So how and why is it trying to seduce the new guardian of the labrynth with power if she allows his freedom. Not only her, but it's stated in Mechanicum that the Dragon always does this to all the Guardian and it is their tribulation to resist his offers, like Satan. He's in Hell but he still has wit to seduce others to give him their souls in exchange for power. That's pretty much what it's doing in the cave. Believe what you want. But you can't pass this crap off as true canon that flows with the old.Creatures of diminished wit and awareness of their previous strength don't dream about how powerful they use to be and how they use to wipe out civilzations because it's Friday. They don't KNOW, not think, but KNOW that they have no real name because such things are beneath a being of its power.

In the book it made the girl who was the new guardian question her own identity to make the feel as if she was the actual Dragon. Whatever the creature in Mechanicum is, it may not remember being sharded (lol, sounds pretty funny if you think about it) by the 'Crons but it damn sure remembers who and what it is. That is not supposed to be the case.
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post #36 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-07-12, 10:22 PM
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Of course Deadeye, because the Shards still have much of what they were in terms of their minds and personality. For instance all the Deceiver Shards have the same manipulative, scheming minds and each one would consider itself the Deceiver. They just can't realize that they are incomplete, fractured beings. So the Dragon of Mars would think of itself as the Void Dragon, never realizing that it is only a piece of the Void Dragon.

Plus the C'tan and their Shard exist on a whole other level from us. All of what you're saying sounds like you're trying to apply human level mentality and consciousness to beings are god-like in comparison to humans. Personally I have no doubt that even the damaged mind and consciousness of the Shards are utterly beyond us.

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post #37 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-08-12, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
No wit huh? So how and why is it trying to seduce the new guardian of the labrynth with power if she allows his freedom. Not only her, but it's stated in Mechanicum that the Dragon always does this to all the Guardian and it is their tribulation to resist his offers, like Satan. He's in Hell but he still has wit to seduce others to give him their souls in exchange for power. That's pretty much what it's doing in the cave. Believe what you want. But you can't pass this crap off as true canon that flows with the old.Creatures of diminished wit and awareness of their previous strength don't dream about how powerful they use to be and how they use to wipe out civilzations because it's Friday. They don't KNOW, not think, but KNOW that they have no real name because such things are beneath a being of its power.

In the book it made the girl who was the new guardian question her own identity to make the feel as if she was the actual Dragon. Whatever the creature in Mechanicum is, it may not remember being sharded (lol, sounds pretty funny if you think about it) by the 'Crons but it damn sure remembers who and what it is. That is not supposed to be the case.
Not the wit to use its full potential. I did not claim it had no wit at all. In the Nightbringer Kasmir DeValtos was similarly manipulated by the shard. It used him to remember emotions it had forgotten while dormant.

It stands to reason that manipulating mortals is an inherent trait they all possess. In this case I would presume that the Dragon was attempting to garner empathy and fool the girl into releasing it, perhaps by having her break the seal that kept "her" imprisoned.


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post #38 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-08-12, 10:15 PM
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So your saying now that the Dragon and Nightbringer remember themselves, just not that they are fragments? Okay, here's my point and before you shoot it down please see my reasoning. The Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the history of the universe right? The Old Ones, as a race, were close to or even collectively to the Emperor. Maybe depending on your sources but they were up there. If a shard of this creature was beyond the Emperor's ability to destroy with all his power at his peak, how the hell were the Old Ones able to defeat not only the Void Dragon in it's entirety but also the rest of the complete C'tan. They defeated them and which caused the C'tan/Necron alliance. So a weakened fragment of the greater whole could not be destroyed the the most powerful psyker in the materium that causes warp gods pause, but the Old Ones defeat the complete Dragon and all of his species requiring them to enter into a doomed alliance with the Necrons? See how this looks to me? You've got a complete Void Dragon at full power, NightBringer, Deciever, Flayer, etc being defeated by the Old Ones at full power. However a fragment of this creature could not be destroyed, as it says in Mechanicum, by the Emperor even if he'd wanted too.

When I said it didn't fit with the fluff this is what I mean.The Dragon was written too powerful in Mechanicum. The Nightbringer actually, I will admit, makes a lot more sense with the new fluff. He's weak and is on the verge of dying if he hadn't accepted the deal with Ventris. Seems more like a shard. The fact that the Dragon, while weak and fractured, still could not be destroyed by a being who was as close to a warp god as you could get without existing in the warp completely doesn't make sense. Either the Old Ones were waaaaaay more powerful then the Emperor, which I've actually suggested on here in the past to here that they were not. I forget where but someone corrected me with telling me that the Emperor is the greatest psyker in existence which means he's more than the Old Ones collectively. Care to explain?
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post #39 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-11-12, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
Care to explain?
Sure.

This mystical pre-War in Heaven conflict between the C'tan and Old Ones may not have happened. The exact wording is as follows:

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Originally Posted by Codex: Necrons, p. 6.
The Deceiver spoke of a war, fought long before the birth of the Necrontyr, between the Cítan and the Old Ones. It was a war, he said, that the Cítan had lost. In the aftermath, and fearing the vengeance of the Old Ones, he and his brothers had hidden themselves away, hoping one day to find allies with whom they could finally bring the Old Ones to account.

Thus did the Deceiver speak, and who can say how much of his tale was truth? It is doubtful whether even the Deceiver knew, for trickery had become so much a part of his existence that even he could no longer divine its root. Yet his words held sway over Szarekh who, like his ancestors before him, despaired of the divisions that were tearing his people apart.
Its quite plausable that the Deceiver fabricated the tale about a previous C'tan/Old One conflict in order to secure an alliance with the Necrontyr.

Also, you can't compare the power of the Emperor with that of the entire civilisation of the Old Ones. In terms of concrete information, the Emperor defeated a C'tan shard, whilst the Old Ones were defeated by the combined efforts of the C'tan, Necrons and the warp plagues. The Emperor being the most powerful psyker compared to the Old Ones is an irrelevant debate.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
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