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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-25-12, 04:20 PM
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I wrote this on another thread:

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Originally Posted by forkmaster View Post
Did anyone else noticed the appearence yet again by the order of the Dragon in one of Gavs books? First they appeared in Delvierence Lost, and I suspected they to be a Chaos cult within the Dark Mechanicus which worshipped the Void Dragon, but now, after reading their insignia, "a dragon which chases and bites its own tail". Isn't that like the mark of Thousand Sons post-heresy? I think they might be a radical Tzeentch supporting cult.
And I'm not so sure how deep this cult goes or how much it has been discussed by HH-team. So far its only Gav Thorpes who has used them as "villains" of sort. Might be explored deeper in the future.
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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-25-12, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Huh, so it is. A Mechanicum Tzeentch cult "of the Dragon" unrelated to the "Dragon of Mars". I was afraid of that, lol.

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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-26-12, 08:38 PM
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Huh, so it is. A Mechanicum Tzeentch cult "of the Dragon" unrelated to the "Dragon of Mars". I was afraid of that, lol.
Well its only a theory, nothing is confirmed. I asked Gav Thorpe this himself and this is what he wrote: "I hope to develop the Order of the Dragon a bit further if I get the chance. As to who they are, you'll have to guess for the time being." So my best guesses are that they are his own creation and ost probably something he will work on then.
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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-27-12, 06:14 AM
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Okay, here me out. Since you all say that Mechanicum fits easily with the new fluff (Cote and Seripion for example) work with me here. The description given of the "shard" of the Void Dragon was basically something that was powerful enough even severely weakened to challenge the most powerful psyker in the known universe. Not only could it challenge the Emperor, but he was unable to destroy this "shard." Turning lemons into lemonade, he constructs an elaborate prison to use the creatures know-how to inspire the Mars engineers to build him an industrial machine that could pretty much arm and transport his armies. That is ONE FREAKING SHARD.
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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-27-12, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
Okay, here me out. Since you all say that Mechanicum fits easily with the new fluff (Cote and Seripion for example) work with me here. The description given of the "shard" of the Void Dragon was basically something that was powerful enough even severely weakened to challenge the most powerful psyker in the known universe. Not only could it challenge the Emperor, but he was unable to destroy this "shard." Turning lemons into lemonade, he constructs an elaborate prison to use the creatures know-how to inspire the Mars engineers to build him an industrial machine that could pretty much arm and transport his armies. That is ONE FREAKING SHARD.
Yes.

There is no problem here. The necrons with all the scientific knowledge the c'tan gave them built weapons capable of extinguishing solar systems yet breaking the c'tan into shards is the best they could manage. These shards remained in possession of the near unlimited power their forebears had because they were still bound to the fabric of the universe, yet they had not the knowledge or memories to use this power to its fullest following their being sundered.

The Empeoro, being the most powerful psyker alive, was able to subdue an already weakened shard, admitting he did not have the power required to destroy it, and then imprisoned it by the means he had at its disposal. A similar scenario to the Eldar constructing a dyson sphere to imprison the Dragon because they lacked the tesseract labyrinths of the necrons and the raw psychic might of the Emperor.

The Cult of the Dragon could be the result of the Dragon Shard's fractured dreams or they could be reclusive Chaos cultists. They could be necron collaborators or they could simply be a rogue faction of their own agenda. We can't do anything but guess what they are at this point and whether or not the sleeping c'tan shard is even relevant to them at all.


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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-27-12, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
Okay, here me out. Since you all say that Mechanicum fits easily with the new fluff (Cote and Seripion for example) work with me here. The description given of the "shard" of the Void Dragon was basically something that was powerful enough even severely weakened to challenge the most powerful psyker in the known universe. Not only could it challenge the Emperor, but he was unable to destroy this "shard." Turning lemons into lemonade, he constructs an elaborate prison to use the creatures know-how to inspire the Mars engineers to build him an industrial machine that could pretty much arm and transport his armies. That is ONE FREAKING SHARD.
I understand what you're saying, you have said the same for your last couple of posts and we have replied accordingly.

Yes, the Dragon of Mars is only one shard of several. Yes, it was a challenge for the Emperor to defeat. Yes, it indirectly helped to create the Mechanicum and thus the Imperium. No, the Emperor wasn't able to destory it, only imprison it. We acknowledge that.

But as you have acknowledged, the shards are still beings of "near-unlimited power", and are only limited by their "imagination" and "glittering memories". For all we know, the shards have the potential to wield just as much power as their consummate forebears, but are limited by their fractured minds and the inability to glean the memories and awareness they possessed before they were shattered. The shards are also presumably just as impossible to utterly eradicate as their predecessors were, so its no wonder the Emperor was unable to destroy the Dragon of Mars.

I see no issue (big or small) with the narrative at all: A shard finds its way to Terra, where it was fought and subdued by the Emperor. The Emperor found it impossible to destroy (which fits the new lore) so instead imprisoned it under the sands of Mars, with the long-term intention of fostering the Mechanicum. The shard (still a being of "near-unlimited power" remember) was then able to subtlety influence the human colonists on Mars to develop their knowledge and appriciation of technology, eventually leading to the development of the Mechanicum. What part of that poses a problem exactly?



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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-28-12, 10:52 AM
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Deadeye: I agree with the other two - that's pretty damn close. There's nothing really to say that the Void Dragon on Mars is wholly sharded, e.g. into tiny pieces like we see in the new Necron Codex. It could be a mammoth piece, it certainly seems to be. Other shards may exist.

However, there's another important factor to bear in mind: the Emperor isn't necessarily the greatest-known psyker... yet.

It takes place deep in the depths of human history, only by ~M30 does the Emperor appear capable of 'trying to take over the galaxy', but before that? How powerful was he? Very powerful? Moderately powerful? Untapped?

It's a bit of a mystery and it might be a little naive to assume he's as powerful when he works on the Webway as he was the day(s) he fought the Dragon. Properly imprisoning the Dragon might have taken millennia, even if subduing it only took a few hours.

Certainly, what we know of the various Thrones is that the Akashic Reader, the Silver Throne and the Ork Throne: they massively amplify psychic powers. Perhaps the Golden Throne of Terra is not entirely different- until it was built/found/acquired perhaps the Emperor was not so powerful as he would become?

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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-28-12, 12:54 PM
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Furthermore, at the time of the Dragon's defeat there was no Mars colony or Imperium. Exactly how he contained it for the millennia until he could move it is never explained, but I doubt keeping a true c'tan prisoner for so long would have been possible with what the Emperor had at his disposal. A mind fractured entity makes more sense.


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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-28-12, 05:35 PM
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Certainly, Serp. If Mars isn't a Necron Tombworld (which seems unlikely nowadays), then it makes sense that if the Emperor just has to keep going back to Mars every few hours/millennia to knock-out the Dragon, it seems a wee bit more reasonable.

Getting him to Mars perhaps isn't so difficult: magical gates to other worlds aren't entirely infeasible. It seems possible that a Dolmen Gate once existed on Earth (foundation for the Golden Throne or the Hall of Leng?), somehow experimenting with that might have been enough, or even just his own bit of magical jiggerypokery may be sufficient.

In that regard, it's possible that the Emperor had to relocate to Mars periodically to do some housekeeping. (And C'tan-knocking-out.) Hiding a C'tan, on the otherhand, might not be so difficult when you've got an empty planet to play with.

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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-29-12, 04:13 AM
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You've all lost the point of my thread. Your telling me there are seven Void Dragon shards like the one the Emperor faced. Go back and read what happened. Seven. So what's going on with them? They on vacation? I'm saying that that thing is too powerful.The most powerful psyker in the history of the materium couldn't destroy a weakned fraction of the Void Dragon. He had to put together an elaborate prison with supernatural guardians to keep it contained. The C'tan, to my knowledge do not have the technology to create a prison like the one on mars. It's ridiculous enough to think the C'tan gave the Necrons the tech to destroy them but to imprison them as well would be ludicrous. The enemy they were both fighting were warp based and nothing like the C'tan, why would they give the Necrons tech to destroy or imprison them?


The shard that was in Nightbringer was more believable. Weakened but still powerful, the Nightbringer had wasn't a night omnipotent fraction. I highly doubt that if even one of the Void Dragon's shards were to awaken or return, at what we saw it capable of in Mechanicum, anything in the Imperium or Necron forces would be able to stop it from taking out Mars's defenses and unite with the other shard there. Waaaay too powerful.
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