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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-20-12, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Wait there, now you guys are talking about the dragon, it sounds awefully similar to the sentient thing The Lion encounters in his own Primarchs story. Do you think they're linked?
If memory serves, the agents guarding the device in The Lion are the same faction as those who crop up conspicuously in Deliverance Lost, also noted to be of 'The Order of the Dragon'.

There's an inherent point that Deadeye's overlooking here, unsurprisingly as the implications of the power of the C'tan aren't trivial.

First of all: the idea that the Emperor in M1 was the same as that of the Emperor in M30 when he conquers Earth, or M31, when he single-mindedly builds his own section of the Webway, something that it previously took the Burning One (C'tan & Dolmen Gates) or the Old Ones (Warp Gates in the first place) to achieve. The Eldar have ambiguous mastery and a surprising degree of innate control, but we really don't know how that compares to the magic (or triviality) of the Emperor and the Dolmen Gates.

The second point: the C'tan aren't unified, the shards even less so. The events which caused the Dragon to appear on Earth in a shoddy state to fight the Emperor and the events which saw the Talismans of Vaul used against the entire entity and the extent of the entity that's actual imprisoned on Mars are not at all clear.

For all we know, events could have proceeded like this:
- Talismans of Vaul used to 'defeat' the Void Dragon during the War in Heaven.
- Entire/most-of/section-of C'tan 'knocked unconscious' to Mars 'the Vaul Moon'
- Sliver/shard of the C'tan makes it to Terra and fights the Emperor
- Emperor beats the 'awake' Shard and proceeds to Mars to imprison/bind the pieces/thing that the Emperor can find on Mars
- Indeterminate numbers of shards might escape/leak from the prison on Mars (notably the Shroud assault on Mars by Necrons in M41 or as the Book stolen by Zouche & Caxton in the epilogue of Mechanicum).

In that regard, by M41:
- The bulk of the Void Dragon might still be unconscious and imprisoned on Mars
- Some shards could be loose, some used by the Adeptus Mechanicus' 'Order of the Dragon', some recovered by Necrons, some simply 'loose' and causing mischief (the Book)?

Alternatively the whole thing could have escaped Mars by binding its consciousness into the Book. Or the whole thing was never on Mars, only a single Shard that the Emperor fought. It could be loose. It could have fled the galaxy. We know tiny, vague bits; we don't know all.

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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-21-12, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Wait there, now you guys are talking about the dragon, it sounds awefully similar to the sentient thing The Lion encounters in his own Primarchs story. Do you think they're linked?
True and let's not forget that Ferrus Manus got his silver hands dunking the Great Silver Wyrm into magma, creature that sounds like a C'tan Shard or some ancient Necron construct made of necrodermis. So perhaps it was a shard of the Void Dragon. It could be another C'tan but given his talent and skill with weapon-making and technology the Dragon is more likely. Perhaps in addition to the necrodermis the Dragon passed on tiny, tiny fragments of itself to him, subtly influencing him. Maybe the IHs' belief in the superiority of iron over flesh was brought about by this shard of the Dragon.

Note: I am NOT saying that the Iron Hands Chapter and their Successor Chapters are pawns of the Void Dragon or the Necrons, just that a shard of the Dragon could have unintentionally or not influenced Ferrus and the Iron Hands.

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-21-12, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Wait there, now you guys are talking about the dragon, it sounds awefully similar to the sentient thing The Lion encounters in his own Primarchs story. Do you think they're linked?
I doubt it, the bulk of that thing is in the Warp and it's able to shift things to and from the Warp. C'tan don't seem to like the Warp very much. Then again, the C'tan did figure out how to tunnel into the Webway, which interacts with the Warp... hell, I'm not even sure what's going on with all the retconning.

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Originally Posted by Akatsuki13
Note: I am NOT saying that the Iron Hands Chapter and their Successor Chapters are pawns of the Void Dragon or the Necrons, just that a shard of the Dragon could have unintentionally or not influenced Ferrus and the Iron Hands.
They have been influenced by it; everything that makes up the Adeptus Mechanicus has been influenced by the Dragon, that was the Emperor's plan all along. He put it there knowing that one day it would push the settlers on Mars towards becoming what they are in the 41st millenium. The Iron hands do the same stuff, right? I doubt they're pawns, willing or unwilling, but it sounds about right to me.

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-21-12, 11:10 PM
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Just to clear a few things up, the 12 black stone fortresses that were used against the Void Dragon in one of the battles of heaven did not defeat him. It clearly states the Void dragon with its Necron Army faced the Eldar army and their 12 black stone fortresses, of which it than destroyed most of them in that battle and routed the Eldar Army.

The Eldar lost that battle, even though they had all 12 black stone fortresses with them during the battle.

Also I do speculate as well that Ferrus Manus has a shard of a C'Tan (void dragon imo) bonded to him, it explains his extreme mastery of crafting, and technology. Also it would explain why he was able to command and manipulate technology, metal with but a touch, as in his battle with Fulgrim he willed Fulgrim's sword to explode with but a touch of his metalic hands.

Also after he was "killed" by fulgrim, a tear of reality occurs, literal hands and forces unknown tore through reality and were grabbing at Fulgrim. Perhaps this is due to the C'Tan shard? Who knows.

Ultimately I believe Games workshop has left the story line malleable enough to the point where if they ever fall into a dire enough financial situation they would be able to bring back any of the primarchs, such as stating the bonded C'Tan shard preserved Ferrus's mind and body with its power, and that he is currently housed secretly in mars in some sort of machine.

Last edited by Lux; 06-21-12 at 11:13 PM.
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-21-12, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Lux View Post
Just to clear a few things up, the 12 black stone fortresses that were used against the Void Dragon in one of the battles of heaven did not defeat him. It clearly states the Void dragon with its Necron Army faced the Eldar army and their 12 black stone fortresses, of which it than destroyed most of them in that battle and routed the Eldar Army.

The Eldar lost that battle, even though they had all 12 black stone fortresses with them during the battle.
Do we actually have that much information?

From the Dawn of the C'tan article:

Quote:
+++OUR INFORMATION STATES THERE WERE SIX FORTRESSES PRIOR TO THE GOTHIC WAR+++

"True enough, but their real potential was never realised by the Imperium, nor even by Abaddon the Despoiler. The Talismans of Vaul were controlled by the spirits of those Eldar Seers killed by the Necron invasion. At the heart of each Talisman sat one of the Eyes of the Witch. These were gifted to Vaul by Morai-heg, the Crone-goddess of the Eldar whose domain was secret knowledge. They enabled the departed spirits to channel vast amounts of energy straight from the Immaterium into real space. In this way Vaul intended to banish the Dragon for eternity."

+++BUT HOW COULD HE LOCATE THE NECRON GOD+++

"The Void-Dragon, its dreams of conquest halted in their tracks, had decided to lead its minions on the battlefield. None could stand before a fully manifested god, not even the Eldar soul-constructs. To ensure it was at the zenith of its power, the Void-Dragon began draining the energies of a binary star. It took the form of a cloud of dark light, surrounding the stellar anomaly and leaching energy from it until it was sated. Vaul knew the stars as well as he did his forge, and when the twin suns began to dim, he set forth to battle."

+++AND HOW DID THE CONFLICT RESOLVE+++

"It didn't. The myth ends there. It is a mistake to assume the Eldar legends follow the same patterns as our own. For what it's worth, I believe Vaul failed in his appointed task. True, the Void-Dragon was stopped in its methodical slaughter, for there are Eldar left in the galaxy. But I am no blinkered fool, and I believe it to be dormant, awaiting the right moment to reappear.

+++ARE YOU AWARE OF THE LOCATION OF ITS REFUGE+++

"Don't be absurd. Nobody has that knowledge."

+++OF COURSE. MY APOLOGIES, LORD INQUISITOR. FAREWELL+++

"What? I had assumed you would want to find out more."

+++WE HAVE LEARNT THE REQUISITE INFORMATION.+++

"Farewell then, Techpriest Alagos."

– VOX RECORD ENDS –
It doesn't exactly reveal much.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
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Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 06-22-12 at 12:11 AM.
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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-22-12, 12:45 AM
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This is what's getting me. A shard right? Go back and look at the description of what the Emperor faced. Your telling me that multiple shards of something like that are NOT imprisioned? Obviously not all the shards are accounted for. Look at what had to occur to imprison this thing that is a fraction. A fraction. Think about what that means and look at the description givin in the book of what kind of creature the Dragon was...weakened. Who else but the Emperor could have taken that thing on? Who's left now that would be able to handle them?

Them, that's right, you heard me. According to the new ridiculous fluff the Dragon represents a fraction of the some total. That means their are other Void Dragon shards out there. I'm sure they'll say come out with a way to justify why these other shards haven't destroyed the universe yet, right? Makes sense. OR, this concludes that the creature and story of the Void Dragon was never meant to be this shard crap. If the Necrons are aware of what's imprisoned there than the Dragon's shards would likely be aware also. This thing use to be a virtual God in the material realm according to the dreams in Mechanicum. So Mr. Ward, please explain how all the other shards are imprisoned as well. I'm sure that the Ward will come up with an explanation.

Maybe the Shards are at Shard-A-Palooza kickin back and listening to good music while a portion of them is imprisoned. Or maybe he'll say that the Necrons have all the Void Dragon shards and the one on Mars is the one that got away, awwww. Maybe there all dormant, though the only reason the Mars "shard" is dormant is due to outside intereference. Hey maybe every planet's got it's on Dragon Prison........
hahah loved this
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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-22-12, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Do we actually have that much information?

From the Dawn of the C'tan article:



It doesn't exactly reveal much.
Point made, you are a source of knowledge you are.
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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-25-12, 05:03 AM
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To Cote:

Glimmering memories isn't what I'm talking about friend. Yeah I know that the one imprisoned by the Emperor had amnesia that was due to the Emperor's power and machinations. Your telling me that the Necron's have imprisoned All of his shards and not only that have built prisons like the one on Mars? The Emperor couldn't defeat destroy this creature weakened. Your telling me there's multiple shards like the one on earth? Even if they have all but 5 percent that's enought to destroy the Imperium. Again these new fluff are making absolutely no sense. You want to believe it because it fits your new army specialization character wishes. For this to make sense, the Dragon in Mechanicus would have to be retconned in power because more than one would mean do the exact opposite of what GW wants apparently: trump Chaos as the preimminent threat to mankind.
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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-25-12, 07:29 AM
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Again we are forgetting what the c'tan shards actually are.

Each one is bound to the fabric of the universe. Each one is in possession of near unlimited power.

The only thing that holds them back is their own fractured awareness and memories. Remember it was their minds that were broken into shards, not the potential power they wield.


In regards to the Cult of the Dragon, I feel that there is further lore yet to be revealed before their relevance will truly become known. For the time being they simply appear to be some filler material designed to invoke speculation. This may in fact be the extent of their purpose from GW but we'll just have to wait and see where it goes.


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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-25-12, 10:07 AM
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To Cote: Glimmering memories isn't what I'm talking about friend.
But such "glimmering memories" is what limits the power and scope of the C'tan shards. As Serp said, despite the shards possessing "near-unlimited power", they do not have the imagination or mind to fully utilise it, or at least not utilise it in the most convenient or direct manner.

The exact wording in the codex is: "Indeed, a C'tan Shard's abilities are limited by two things: its imagination - which is immense - and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed. Whilst no individual C'tan Shard has full recall of the omnipotent creature it once was, each carries the personality and hubris of that far vaster and more puissant being."

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Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
Yeah I know that the one imprisoned by the Emperor had amnesia that was due to the Emperor's power and machinations.
But it wasn't due to the Emperor. It is the nature of the C'tan shards that their minds are fractured.

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Your telling me that the Necron's have imprisoned All of his shards and not only that have built prisons like the one on Mars?
Umm, no? The Necrons have most of the C'tan shards imprisoned within the tesseract labyrinths. The Emperor didn't have access to such technology, but was able to imprison a Void Dragon shard in a different manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
Your telling me there's multiple shards like the one on earth? Even if they have all but 5 percent that's enought to destroy the Imperium...

For this to make sense, the Dragon in Mechanicus would have to be retconned in power because more than one would mean do the exact opposite of what GW wants apparently: trump Chaos as the preimminent threat to mankind.
No, it's not enough to destroy the Imperium. Compared to their consummate predecessors, the scope of the C'tan shards is severely limited. Also, whilst still incredibly powerful, as far as I am aware they also still largely rely on necrodermis technology to truly interact in mortal ways, and if they don't have the backing of a tomb world it is unclear if they could remanifest with necrodermis shells - at least that is in regards to the shards unaccounted for by the Necrons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
Again these new fluff are making absolutely no sense. You want to believe it because it fits your new army specialization character wishes.
No, I don't play table-top.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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