Arik Taranis theory (**Outcast Dead spoilers**) - Page 5 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #41 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 04:18 AM
Senior Member
 
MEQinc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by happytravelling View Post
You are getting ahead of yourself. Saying that it is well established that Thunder Warriors are in many ways prototype Astartes, doesn't really add anything to this discussion, which is whether the thunder Warrior had geneseed.
My point was that being a prototype for the Astartes doesn't require having all the same properties as the Astartes, in particular the progenoids.

Quote:
The evidence I have given is that the thunder Warriors had a Betcher's Gland, which suggests, but does not imply, that Thunder Warriors had geneseed. If they had similiar organs, the question becomes, where did these organs come from?
Most Space Marine special organs (including the Betcher's Gland) are implanted separately into the Neophyte. This is because Space Marines are converted humans. Thunder Warriors however appear to be grown from scratch and thus likely are 'born' with them.

Quote:
Again, IF the Thunder Warriors had geneseed, then they would NEED a Reductor.
Right. My point was that just because a Thunder Warrior has a reductor doesn't mean he has progenoids.

Quote:
At the end of the story, after he and Ghota are able to obtain Astares geneseed, he is finally successful and the two organs glisten bright red, with no signs of necrosis. I don't have the book here, but he tells Ghota that it means LIFE, "my son".
Arik is very smart and once the organs are implanted, I believe that he will be successful in halting the degeneration of his body and Ghota's.
The organs themselves no longer degenerate, which means they will not degenerate inside the Arik and Ghota. It does not mean that they will somehow stop the degeneration of other parts of their bodies. I would suggest that Arik is creating parts to replace those most damaged in themselves but this won't fix the underlying cause of the degeneration in other parts of their bodies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by happytravelling View Post
No, I mean geneseed, which are also known as progenoid glands.
Well see, "gene-seed" is a very loose term and can actually be applied to ALL the organs the Astartes are implanted with, not just the progenoids. It's important to be clear here, because evidence shows that Thunder Warriors have something approximating a Bletcher's Gland and thus can be said to have some 'gene-seed'. However a reductor is used exclusively to harvest the progenoids, which are another type of gene-seed and one that does not appear to be evident in the Thunder Warriors.

Is this debate then about whether the Thunder Warriors possess certain parts of the gene-seed, or about whether they possess progenoid glands?

Quote:
I have already responded to the discussion of implantation.
Actually no, you haven't. You talk about what organs he's growing and what they do in Space Marines. You haven't addressed the fact that Space Marines are only created from prepubescent boys because implanting gene-seed organs latter than that results in death.

"Look into my eyes, and see your death."
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
MEQinc is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #42 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 03:28 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 9
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Most Space Marine special organs (including the Betcher's Gland) are implanted separately into the Neophyte. This is because Space Marines are converted humans. Thunder Warriors however appear to be grown from scratch and thus likely are 'born' with them.
No, you are clearly wrong. When Arik tells the Outcast Dead his true name, he states beforehand, "I no longer remember my mortal name, before I was remade into what I am now...". He was not BORN with these implants, he was born a mortal man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
The organs themselves no longer degenerate, which means they will not degenerate inside the Arik and Ghota. It does not mean that they will somehow stop the degeneration of other parts of their bodies. I would suggest that Arik is creating parts to replace those most damaged in themselves but this won't fix the underlying cause of the degeneration in other parts of their bodies.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. I will repeat what I have said, using smaller words, with more detail as to what I was trying to say.

Arik and Ghota are dying. The GOAL of Arik's laboratory experiments seems to be to try and stop the degeneration of their bodies. He may even say that at one point, but I do not have the book here, so I can't quote it. We do not know exactly what he is trying to create, but whatever it is, it is an organ of some type. Given the description, I have suggested that it is a Haemastamen organ, which allows Astartes' blood's biochemical composition to carry oxygen and nutrients more efficiently. I only suggest this because of the reference several times to superoxygenated blood in the description of the organ.

Your suggestion implies that he needs to create several organs to replace what no longer functions, but if that were the case, he would not proclaim success with the creation of just a single organ.

Arik is a very smart person. He has spent decades if not centuries trying to create something that will allow both Ghota and Arik to live. The fact that he needs geneseed is interesting, but does not say a lot about what he needs it for, or whether the Thunder Warriors had geneseed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Well see, "gene-seed" is a very loose term and can actually be applied to ALL the organs the Astartes are implanted with, not just the progenoids. It's important to be clear here, because evidence shows that Thunder Warriors have something approximating a Bletcher's Gland and thus can be said to have some 'gene-seed'. However a reductor is used exclusively to harvest the progenoids, which are another type of gene-seed and one that does not appear to be evident in the Thunder Warriors.
Now you're just talking down to me, with the 'well see..'.

Perhaps you did not read what I wrote or do not understand Space Marine geneseed, also known as Progenoid glands. Again, I will try to explain with more detail as to what I was trying to say. The GENESEED, contains the genetic information to culture and grow each of the Space Marine implants. This is why an apothecary does not have to remove each organ, just the GENESEED (also known as progenoid glands). The fact that Arik believes that he needs GENESEED to complete his experiments, does not mean, as you have said, that he is just going to implant the geneseed directly into his body, because as you have noted, it would probably kill him (but then if he is a Primarch, it may not).

As I have said, Arik is very smart, which makes you wonder what he would need GENESEED for? He is creating an organ, which he needs for both he and Ghota to LIVE (his words). If he is as smart as a Primarch, he would be trying to create something to reverse their degeneration, not just stop it. Again, we are talking Primarch level intelligence (I believe). I have suggested that he needs it to create a Haemastamen organ, which he would implant directly into himself and Ghota without killing them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Actually no, you haven't. You talk about what organs he's growing and what they do in Space Marines. You haven't addressed the fact that Space Marines are only created from prepubescent boys because implanting gene-seed organs latter than that results in death.
Yes, I did. I said that he was trying to create an organ that he seems to think will at least halt his degeneration. You are the one that keeps talking about trying to implant the entire geneseed into his body. I never mentioned this.

And he is not trying to create a Space Marine, he is trying to halt his own degeneration. Implanting a single organ, made by Primarch level intelligence, is not the same as trying to create a new space marine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Is this debate then about whether the Thunder Warriors possess certain parts of the gene-seed, or about whether they possess progenoid glands?
This is not a debate, this is a discussion. If you read the title and first post of this thread, it is whether Arik Taranis was a 'proto-primarch'. This discussion has been that if the Thunder Warriors had at least some of the organs that the space marines had, then where did they come from? Was Arik the progenitor of the Thunder Warriors geneseed that would be used to create the organs implanted into later Thunder Warriors? Or were the organs implanted into Arik and the geneseed grew within him until it was ready to be implanted into other Thunder Warriors?

I do not know but talking about this has certainly clarified many things in my mind, which is why we are having this discussion, not debate. I admit, none of the evidence is clear cut, but the richness of the OUTCAST DEAD, is that it contribute new information to the WH40K universe that is now part of canon and we could discuss endlessly what it all means.

Last edited by happytravelling; 01-11-14 at 03:48 PM.
happytravelling is offline  
post #43 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 11:05 PM
Deathwing Commissar
 
Phoebus's Avatar
Phoebus's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wandering...
Posts: 1,846
Reputation: 23
Default

Something I wanted to interject in this discussion... while the organs created from gene-seed are designed for male children ranging from 10 to 18 years of age, they can be implanted into adults. When applied to adults, however, the full process has a high mortality rate. Per earlier background material, certain organs also don't have the same effect on grown subjects: older individuals will not grow as tall or as large as individuals implanted at 10 years of age.

I say all this to point out that it's by no means impossible an impossible scheme for Arik Taranis to try to implant gene seed-derived organs in himself and Ghota. The main thing to consider is whether Arik knows how gene-seed implantation works. The Index Astartes article on the topic indicates that:

Quote:
"Each of these organs is extremely complicated and because many of the organs only work properly when another organ is present, the removal or mutation of one organ may affect the exact functioning of the others."
I sincerely doubt Arik Taranis possesses intelligence on the level of a Primarch. I suspect he is a very intelligent individual who combines his native smarts with a great deal of experience and knowledge. It would make for a rather weak story if he was just stumbling about, amateur hour-style, trying to simply imitate Space Marine processes on a hope and a prayer.
Phoebus is offline  
 
post #44 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-12-14, 12:07 AM
Senior Member
 
MEQinc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by happytravelling View Post
No, you are clearly wrong. When Arik tells the Outcast Dead his true name, he states beforehand, "I no longer remember my mortal name, before I was remade into what I am now...". He was not BORN with these implants, he was born a mortal man.
Ah, I had forgotten that part. That means he's obviously not a Primarch (like thing) then.

Quote:
I have no idea what you are trying to say. I will repeat what I have said, using smaller words, with more detail as to what I was trying to say.
And I'll do the same. Getting an organ transplant doesn't fix the disease that caused the organ to fail in the first place. Say your kidneys fail as a result of a brain tumor. You need a new kidney in order to survive, so one is taken from a perfectly healthy donor. This kidney is itself fine, it will not fail or degrade on its own. However once it is implanted in you it will begin to degrade because of your brain tumor. The implant has extended your life but it has not saved you.

Arik is trying to procure a transplant organ but that in no way indicates that he can fix the underlying disease.

Quote:
Your suggestion implies that he needs to create several organs to replace what no longer functions, but if that were the case, he would not proclaim success with the creation of just a single organ.
I don't know how many organs he needs. I find it hard to believe that just one could fix all the problems the Thunder Warriors have. Further the fact that he took a progenoid and not one of the other gene-seed organs suggests that he needs more than one.

He could claim success based on the fact that he has created a method of growing successful organs. The organ itself doesn't necessarily represent the end of the project. Just the stage where it moves from "how do I do this" to "let's do this".

Quote:
Now you're just talking down to me, with the 'well see..'.
That was meant to make the tone of my post conversational rather than patronizing. I was concerned that opening with things like "No you're wrong" or "Perhaps you need to read my post" would come across as overly confrontational.

Quote:
Perhaps you did not read what I wrote or do not understand Space Marine geneseed, also known as Progenoid glands.
Perhaps you did not read my post. Gene-seed refers to all the implanted organs. The progenoids are also commonly called gene-seed. In order to prevent confusion one should clarify which you are referring to. Confusion like when I say "implanting gene-seed" and you read "implanting progenoids". I know Arik doesn't appear to want to implant the progenoid. However the progenoid is only one of the organs that constitutes gene-seed. Arik clearly wants to implant at least one of these organs.

Quote:
but If he is as smart as a Primarch, he would be trying to create something to reverse their degeneration, not just stop it. Again, we are talking Primarch level intelligence (I believe).
1) There's no evidence to suggest that Arik has Primarch level intelligence.
2) Having Primarch level intelligence does not equate to being able to fix everything wrong with a person, or even understand everything that's wrong. Corax is only partly able to understand what the Emperor did with the Space Marines and that is with extensive help.
3) You believe Arik can not only understand what's going on with the Thunder Warriors ans see where the problem is but fix something that either the Emperor couldn't fix or didn't want to. That's not Primarch level intelligence its Emperor level intelligence.

"Look into my eyes, and see your death."
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
MEQinc is offline  
post #45 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-12-14, 03:01 AM
Senior Member
 
emporershand89's Avatar
emporershand89's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New England.....somewhere in that mess of awesomness!!
Posts: 2,270
Reputation: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulGazer View Post
this just means BL is making a cool character to be killed off at some point in another book.
Like they did with Sarpeon of the Soul Drinker's Chapter after the mutations were discovered. The man kicked Tzeentch in the face God Damn it!! I cannot beleive they had him killed by a Imperial Fist. Ugh!!


Back to topic, so I am going to buy OutCast Dead and read it as it seems a good and interesting Fluff read. However I would like to make a few pointers/questions about the Outcasts and Arik himself.

From your Bulletins, Cowbellicus, you make him seems almost on par with the Emporer himself. He possibly discovered the secret of the gene-seed (of which only the Emporer currently knows that greedy bastard), quite the accomplished Warrior, and lead his men to victory against the odds. Is he possibly the Emporer's Equal?

Also Arik and the Outcast's, who from my limited undertsanding were captured Thunder Warrior's, managed to fight past the Custodes with little but their bare hands and primitive weapons. Does this make them better than the Adeptus Custodes, who are suppose to be the most Elite form of Astartes in the Imperium?

Finally Arik was supposedly killed, but as Cowbellicus clearly points out he is very much alive in the novel. It also seems he possibly discovered the secret to the Gene-Seed at the end of the book. Does this mean he is still around, possibly creating a new Astartes Legion



"Walk Softely, and Carry a Big Gun!"
emporershand89 is offline  
post #46 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-12-14, 07:22 AM
Senior Member
Brother Lucian's Flag is: Denmark
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 2,003
Reputation: 13
Default

The oucast dead is astartes, theres only 2 thunder warriors present in the book. Ghota and Arik.

Also, the progenoids IS the geneseed organs.
Brother Lucian is offline  
post #47 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-14-14, 04:57 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: The "Anger" Zone
Posts: 68
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
1) There's no evidence to suggest that Arik has Primarch level intelligence.
Ah, but there is. If you read the section where he's working with his lab, it flat out says that no one else could have unravelled the mysteries except the emperor himself. To me that's one of the strongest pieces of evidence that Arik is more than just a mere Badass Level Thunder Warrior. He may not be a Primarch with a capital P, but maybe he was the testbed for many of the pieces of tech the emperor eventually rolled into the primarchs themselves. Something like :

- Emperor builds Arik Taranis with a host of weird prototype tech that makes him a primarch-like one-off.
- Emperor distills the process down and mass produces Thunder Warriors.
- Emperor decides it's time to get more serious about primarch-type warriors and takes what he learned from his Arik experiments and runs with it.

It's pretty difficult to resolve the extreme levels of Awesome attributed to him without considering him as a unique superbeing akin to a Primarch. Clearly, the idea behind Thunder Warriors in general as a piece of fluff is to provide a similar-but-not-exactly-the-same precursor to the Astartes in both form, function and origin. In that context, Arik makes sense as a similar-but-not-exactly-the-same precursor to a Primarch as he was clearly the one wielding the pimp hand at that time.

Also : Older Is Better, Super Prototype, Badass Grandpa, potentially Stronger With Age, and maybe, just maybe, my personal hope, Upgrade vs Prototype Fight. Please God make that happen during the siege of Terra.

Random thought, if a little mundane : Maybe Arik and his resurrected Thunder Warriors become transmogrified into the Legion of the Damned in the long run? It makes some sense.

Last edited by Cowbellicus; 01-14-14 at 05:10 AM.
Cowbellicus is offline  
post #48 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-14-14, 08:16 AM
Senior Member
 
Gret79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,629
Reputation: 14
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
You haven't addressed the fact that Space Marines are only created from prepubescent boys because implanting gene-seed organs latter than that results in death.
Minor point - it doesn't always result in death - the wolves 13th company were too old to become marines, yet they all tried anyway. They had a high failure rate, but the 13th company ended up as marines and not augmented warriors like Kor Phaeron and Luther.
[/minor pedantism]

Carry on
Gret79 is offline  
post #49 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-14-14, 07:22 PM
Lux
Senior Member
 
Lux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,076
Reputation: 10
Default

Arik Taranis is a clone of the Emperor, one in which the Emperor deliberately made flawed to ensure it would not become a rival to his position of power.
Lux is offline  
post #50 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-14-14, 08:09 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 79
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux View Post
Arik Taranis is a clone of the Emperor, one in which the Emperor deliberately made flawed to ensure it would not become a rival to his position of power.

Based on what? I do not doubt the Emperor thinking in the terms espoused by the second part of your statement, but that's all it is.

Do you have a logical basis, or reference for this theory?
Marauderlegion is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome