Arik Taranis theory (**Outcast Dead spoilers**) - Page 4 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #31 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-12-13, 04:56 PM
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I don't remember that from Legion. Have you got a reference?
Sorry for not including the full quote, but it's Chapter 3, page 97 of 554 in the epub version.



Hmmmmm, I had it fixed in my head it was around 600 years prior to the GC, but it's actually 800 years. It also suggests that the Emperor had been warring for a bit already, so who knows if it had been 2, 100, or 200 years prior to that in which the Thunder Warriors had been fighting. I suppose you could argue that the quote doesn't title the Emperor's warriors as "Thunder Warriors" specifically, so who knows if they were the actual Arik Taranis crowd or what.

Another implication is the Thunder Warriors could have lived up to 600 years, or even 1,000 in the case of Arik Taranis. That doesn't seem to be the quick burnout much of this thread implies, but the difference between a freakishly long life span even in the 40K universe and immortality. It was probably another data point the Emperor used to improve the overall longevity of successive iterations of his super warriors.

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post #32 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 07:31 AM
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I suspect you missed one of the most important aspects of Arik being a Primarch.
The Thunder Warriors used redactors to extract their geneseed (why else need
a redactor). The question then becomes, who was the source for the original
geneseed? The telling "My son" at the very end of the story carries more weight
if you know that the Thunder Warriors had Geneseed.

Another indication that Thunder Warriors are prototypes for the Astares is that
when Ghota spits on the ground and walks away, the saliva starts to eat away
at the ground as any Space Marines saliva would do.

There is no indication that the Custodes had geneseed, as far as I can tell.

The other point is that Arik appears to be a very powerful psycher. Only when
Arik appears at the church entrance, does the Word Bearer sense their pursuers.
Arik tells his that he has only now ALLOWED the Word Bearer to sense them.
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post #33 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 05:19 PM
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I suspect you missed one of the most important aspects of Arik being a Primarch.
The Thunder Warriors used redactors to extract their geneseed (why else need
a redactor). The question then becomes, who was the source for the original
geneseed? The telling "My son" at the very end of the story carries more weight
if you know that the Thunder Warriors had Geneseed.
This is good reasoning, but I think the reason that Arik had an extractor was a need to get the geneseed of an Astares, not for use on themselves. Otherwise, there's no mention of the Thunder Warriors actually having geneseed.

The 'my son' comment could have been his use as a template for other Thunder Warriors, but that still doesn't indicate it's due to geneseed, which was a tool of mass-production. In 'Deliverance Lost', it's shown that
I can see the same model being used by the Emperor for Thunder Warrior production, who seem to have been more vat-grown than regular humans who are mutated by the geneseed, which itself is an enhancement for the mass-production needed to prosecute the Great Crusade.

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post #34 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 09:29 PM
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This is good reasoning, but I think the reason that Arik had an extractor was a need to get the geneseed of an Astares, not for use on themselves. Otherwise, there's no mention of the Thunder Warriors actually having geneseed.
Of course the reason that Arik had a redactor was to extract the geneseed, but we are not disputing that the purpose of a redactor, but WHERE he got the redactor.
The redactor the Arik had was described by the outcast dead as primitive, yet clearly and unmistakably, a redactor. This seems to imply that the redactor that Arik had was one created before the Astares redactor was created.

It's not a lot to go on, but it is what it is.
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post #35 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 09:30 PM
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The problem when dealing with a character like the emperor is that no matter what has come before, when the truth, or just a chosen resolution has been revealed; it can always be explained away as "all part of the plan".
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post #36 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 09:46 PM
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I always got the impression from The Outcast Dead that the reason for the superior physical strength of the Thunder Warriors was precisely because of their inferior genetic template.
Arik himself ponders the question whether the Emperor created the Thunder Warriors knowing that they would eventually be discarded and built in the decay factor into their genetic structure.

But the real answer to the question is how long will Arik and Ghota live after they have implanted their newly created geneseed(?). At the very least, it will stop the decay of their bodies. At best, they may live as long as a regular space marine.
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post #37 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by happytravelling View Post
Another indication that Thunder Warriors are prototypes for the Astares is thatwhen Ghota spits on the ground and walks away, the saliva starts to eat away
at the ground as any Space Marines saliva would do.
It's already well established that Thunder Warriors are in many ways prototype Astartes. That doesn't mean they have gene-seed.

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The redactor the Arik had was described by the outcast dead as primitive, yet clearly and unmistakably, a redactor. This seems to imply that the redactor that Arik had was one created before the Astares redactor was created.
1) It could be an early model of the reducter. An early model could easily be 'primitive' in comparison to modern models whilst still not being older than Astartes themselves.
2) It could be a home-made reducter. Again, clearly primitive but not dating to before the Astartes.

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But the real answer to the question is how long will Arik and Ghota live after they have implanted their newly created geneseed(?). At the very least, it will stop the decay of their bodies. At best, they may live as long as a regular space marine.
Why do you think it will stop their decay?

Geneseed doesn't have regenerative powers (also, you mean progenoids). Implantion in mature subjects seems to lead (universally AFAIK) to the death of the subject, not his regeneration. Surely if implanting it in Space Marines healed those Space Marines that would be common procedure (instead they do the opposite and remove the progenoid glads upon maturation).

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post #38 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 06:24 AM
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Well if you think about it. The Thunder Warriors are beings that runs on too small batteries, crashing and burning when its drained. Whereas Astartes have a perpetual battery. But remove the progenoids from a still living Astartes, and his enhanced physiology starts to shut down, as they regulate the other organs. Theres been multiple ocassions of an Astartes feeling emasculated, or just like a mere man after his progenoids have been purloined. Such as that imperial fist in Malodrax. They have great significance for an Astartes, as they are their living link to their primarch and what which pushes them beyond mortal limits.
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post #39 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 02:11 PM
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It's already well established that Thunder Warriors are in many ways prototype Astartes. That doesn't mean they have gene-seed.
You are getting ahead of yourself. Saying that it is well established that Thunder Warriors are in many ways prototype Astartes, doesn't really add anything to this discussion, which is whether the thunder Warrior had geneseed. The evidence I have given is that the thunder Warriors had a Betcher's Gland, which suggests, but does not imply, that Thunder Warriors had geneseed. If they had similiar organs, the question becomes, where did these organs come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
1) It could be an early model of the reducter. An early model could easily be 'primitive' in comparison to modern models whilst still not being older than Astartes themselves.
2) It could be a home-made reducter. Again, clearly primitive but not dating to before the Astartes.
Again, IF the Thunder Warriors had geneseed, then they would NEED a Reductor.

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Why do you think it will stop their decay?
Both Arik and Ghota were dying. Their skin is decayed and held together with sutures and wire. What is important here are the experiments that Arik is doing in his laboratory, and apparently has been for decades. We aren't told exactly what he is creating, but his failures mimic his own condition, which is that is body is decaying. One failure is describes as riddled with necrotic tissue, the tissue not able to distribute the super-oxygenated bloold efficiently. I would suggest he is trying to create a Haemastamen organ.
At the end of the story, after he and Ghota are able to obtain Astares geneseed, he is finally successful and the two organs glisten bright red, with no signs of necrosis. I don't have the book here, but he tells Ghota that it means LIFE, "my son".
Arik is very smart and once the organs are implanted, I believe that he will be successful in halting the degeneration of his body and Ghota's.
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post #40 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 02:34 PM
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Geneseed doesn't have regenerative powers (also, you mean progenoids). Implantion in mature subjects seems to lead (universally AFAIK) to the death of the subject, not his regeneration. Surely if implanting it in Space Marines healed those Space Marines that would be common procedure (instead they do the opposite and remove the progenoid glads upon maturation).
No, I mean geneseed, which are also known as progenoid glands. I have already responded to the discussion of implantation. As I said, I believe that Arik is trying to create Haemastamen organs from the geneseed, which contain the genetic material needed to create each of the Astares organs.

I would like to thank you for the discussion, as it gives me a chance to review this. I look forward to writing about my ideas on what a true original STC is capable of that I have not seen written about (with references). I hope that you will also review that material.
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