C'tan retconned into oblivion. - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-04-11, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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@MEQinc, AlexHolker

I actually meant about them being bad author insertion characters. Just read Battle of the Fang, for instance. Magnus flies back and forth from being all-powerful to having to "remember what he was" and it's just a tad silly. Like they want to keep them in the books cause they're popular, but they don't really know what else to do with them if there aren't other Primarchs around to fight them. They seem to stomp anything anyone else anyone throws at them (Avatars of Khaine, for instance,) and are only really defeated by their own dumb mistakes and poor judgement.

Like the C'tan, they're cool characters that don't really have a place in 40k combat. I'm ok with that, I just wish they didn't ignore all the rumors and hints they'd set up prior to this codex. All those dozens of threads over the years about the Void Dragon being on Mars and not a single mention of it in this codex. There was in the first codex, however, which is why I believe it has now been retconned into some other type of entity.

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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-04-11, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SoulGazer View Post
I actually meant about them being bad author insertion characters. Like they want to keep them in the books cause they're popular, but they don't really know what else to do with them if there aren't other Primarchs around to fight them.
Okay first, that's not what an author-insert character is. An author-insert character is a character that the author themselves either wishes they were or thinks they are; or someone who spouts the authors ideas and opinions within the work. What you're describing is more like a franchise-character, like the way Wolverine shows up in X-Men First Class for absolutely no reason other than he's Wolverine.

Of topic and irrelevant I know, just... I feel the need to correct random people on the internet sometimes.

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Like the C'tan, they're cool characters that don't really have a place in 40k combat. I'm ok with that, I just wish they didn't ignore all the rumors and hints they'd set up prior to this codex.
I agree with this completely. My problem, slight though it ever was, was simply that the C'tan were pretty much Deus Ex Machina's of the entire 40k verse whereas Primarchs are only Deus Ex Machina's of the stories they're in, and even then not always.

Plus Avatars aren't that hard. If it can fight on the table, it should be owned by anything that can't (Primarchs, Chaos Gods, the Emperor, C'tan, I'm going to put the Pheonix Lords here cause I think they should be taken off the table, etc).

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-04-11, 06:42 PM
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I think that alot of the changes to necrons are not great

My main anger with the change is that in previous edition the c'tan were star vampires, now they were little more than the chaos gods, who consumed the souls of the necrontyr within the biotransference chambers (my biggest gripe with the codex, main fluff event of the tranformation is brushed over, theres mentions of a necrontyr v necron civil wave but is not really expanded on "Insert Dr who city of steel ep here") now they wanted souls

shame as a considerably larger number of ctan are mentioned but never given any character
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-04-11, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexHolker View Post
Don't be obtuse. It wasn't "a single man", it was the God-Emperor of Mankind, one of the most powerful entities in the entire setting.


Not at all like the Primarchs. Nobody's saying "the only reason the Orks exist is because of Marneus Calgar" or "Alcoholism never existed until Leman Russ invented it".
Space marine alcoholism didn't
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-05-11, 03:05 AM
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I don't think any space marines new how to party before Russ went Animal House on Fenris. I'm over this change in the C'tan. I thought the concept of the Void Dragon was cool. However if this all is true then this means Mechanicus was a waste of my time.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-05-11, 04:07 AM
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Well remember guys the Ctan was pulled out of thin air during 3rd edition. So if they can make it up on a dime they make it never happen on a dime. This is GW we are talking about here.

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-05-11, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Barnster View Post
I think that alot of the changes to necrons are not great

My main anger with the change is that in previous edition the c'tan were star vampires, now they were little more than the chaos gods, who consumed the souls of the necrontyr within the biotransference chambers (my biggest gripe with the codex, main fluff event of the tranformation is brushed over, theres mentions of a necrontyr v necron civil wave but is not really expanded on "Insert Dr who city of steel ep here") now they wanted souls
r
Is souls the actual word used?

Because if that's so it's a 180 degree turn on their old fluff. The c'tan consumed your physical energy not you soul, which is warp energy. That's a rather important change as warp energy was anathema to the c'tan.

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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-05-11, 08:26 AM
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Is souls the actual word used?

Because if that's so it's a 180 degree turn on their old fluff. The c'tan consumed your physical energy not you soul, which is warp energy. That's a rather important change as warp energy was anathema to the c'tan.
It says this:
"In that moment, he knew with cold certainty that the price for physical immortality had been the loss of his soul."

Which was in reference to the Silent King and his feelings post transformation.

It later goes onto the say that the C'tan were "glutted on the life force of the Necronty" when it goes into the eventual defeat of the old ones.

I don't think it ever actually says that the C'tan CONSUMED the souls of the Necrontyr, merely that the transformation resulted in the loss of their soul. Considering that, I would bet that the soul was connected with the organic form, and when it died, or the consciousness of necron the was transferred, the soul was lost. Could be wrong though.

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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-05-11, 08:36 AM
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@Rems: It says the c`tan fed off the life energies,. nowhere did it mention souls being fed on.


My take on this is less extreme. To me, the emphasis on individual c`tan has vanished to be replaced by more focus on the necrons. The c`tan are alluded to as a whole, with only the Deceiver being mentioned individually. It is still the Deceiver credited with engineering the downfall of the c`tan, however that is the extent of any individual mention.

After this it is said that the necrons rebelled, destroying some of the c`tan and shattering the rest into thousands of fragments which were then contained inside the tesseract labyrinths. Exactly how they did it is only credited to their knowledge and technology being up to the task. The necrons struck back at the c`tan`s most vulnerable time and took advantage of the star gods` arrogance. Even so, billions of necrons were lost, so there can be no pretending that the necrons "bitch slapped" the c`tan in any way.

Also, every allusion to the c`tan in existing fluff is still perfectly valid. Many c`tan shards are unaccounted for, meaning that they can have interactions beyond the necrons control.


Therefore, it is safe to assume that the UM batled a shard of the Nightbringer beneath Pavonis, the Emperor defeated a shard of the Dragon on ancient Terra, and one or perhaps more shards of the Deceiver have been playing their trickeries upoin the young races for millennia.


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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-05-11, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Plus Avatars aren't that hard. If it can fight on the table, it should be owned by anything that can't (Primarchs, Chaos Gods, the Emperor, C'tan, I'm going to put the Pheonix Lords here cause I think they should be taken off the table, etc).
Phoenix Lords? Since when are they anywhere near Primarchs?

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Thou shalt not become a crybaby when the Gods turn their gaze away from you and thou rolleth ones like they areth earning thou money. Thou shalt acccept thine defeat and implore the Gods that they may go easy on thine arse next time.
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