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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 05-31-11, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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Default Would you people listen to yourselves?

Dark Eldar players are blessed with one thing more than most other armies: freedom of choice. Sure, there are optimal choices (which by definition means there must be suboptimal choices) and when someone is posting a list they want to be competitive, it is natural - but ultimately wrong - to suggest the one and only thing to be 110% the very best.

For one, the short hand reply of "get 3 Ravagers" is getting abusively old and was retarded from the get go. Let me just set this up: I am a competitive player, but furthermore, I am a competitive player able to think for myself and do my own math. And don't get me wrong, spamming Darklight weapons in this metagame makes sound tactical sense. BUT every Joe, Jane, Dick and their dog are repeating the same tired old line. "get 3 Ravagers".

You need 5 Darklight or Haywire weapons per 500 points. Now THAT is how to phrase advise with a proven and playtested mathematically efficient standpoint. THEN, you can go about giving advice based on which method of achieving that goal is most points efficient. And in 70% of the cases the Ravager is going to be the delivery of choice.

What about the other 30% percent? Metagame, people. Do you expect to face a heavy IG, GK, BA, SW, or any other army saturation? Think. Just fucking think. Not that there's any real threat of it, but, imagine you're in a 64 player event with 63 Tau players. That is 5/5 games your Ravagers aren't even going to get a movement phase before they evaporate, much less shoot if you get first turn against disruption pod- equipped Hammerheads. In this case you might plan ahead and get Duke Sliscus to allow your 3 Ravagers to deep strike. Or you pick up something else.

My point is, it's not black and white, and this goes for every FoC slot. I'm not saying "get 3 Ravagers" is not sound advice, but it is offensive to the OP's intelligence... Afterall, if you're a Dark Eldar player you'll have to be a rookie or really slow to not have noticed that Ravagers are good.

Dark Eldar have lots of options. Apart from Reavers, Mandrakes and Scourges - plus a few special characters, we don't have anything that really is sub par by any other armie's standards except Space Wolves and IG. A Talos with twin-linked Haywire blasters can do just as well as a Ravager and cuts down on redundancy. But that isn't good advice either, if it's not tailored to the right player's list.

TL;DR: Immerse yourself in the list you're presented with before you blurt out tired old lines like a broken record.

EDIT: Sorry for the wrong forum post, I've asked to have it moved.

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Last edited by MetalHandkerchief; 05-31-11 at 08:55 PM.
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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 06-01-11, 01:45 PM
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So true, so true. I've realised this is like the oldCSM army list advice of Obliterators!!!! Even though the ravaged advice isn't tactically sound this oblate advice can be.

Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger,
(Unless it blows off both your legs)

See my Purge Army plz
Burn the Herestic Burner
Kill the Mutant Killer
Purge the Unclean Purger
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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 06-01-11, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalHandkerchief View Post
Dark Eldar players are blessed with one thing more than most other armies: freedom of choice. Sure, there are optimal choices (which by definition means there must be suboptimal choices) and when someone is posting a list they want to be competitive, it is natural - but ultimately wrong - to suggest the one and only thing to be 110% the very best.

For one, the short hand reply of "get 3 Ravagers" is getting abusively old and was retarded from the get go. Let me just set this up: I am a competitive player, but furthermore, I am a competitive player able to think for myself and do my own math. And don't get me wrong, spamming Darklight weapons in this metagame makes sound tactical sense. BUT every Joe, Jane, Dick and their dog are repeating the same tired old line. "get 3 Ravagers".

You need 5 Darklight or Haywire weapons per 500 points. Now THAT is how to phrase advise with a proven and playtested mathematically efficient standpoint. THEN, you can go about giving advice based on which method of achieving that goal is most points efficient. And in 70% of the cases the Ravager is going to be the delivery of choice.

What about the other 30% percent? Metagame, people. Do you expect to face a heavy IG, GK, BA, SW, or any other army saturation? Think. Just fucking think. Not that there's any real threat of it, but, imagine you're in a 64 player event with 63 Tau players. That is 5/5 games your Ravagers aren't even going to get a movement phase before they evaporate, much less shoot if you get first turn against disruption pod- equipped Hammerheads. In this case you might plan ahead and get Duke Sliscus to allow your 3 Ravagers to deep strike. Or you pick up something else.

My point is, it's not black and white, and this goes for every FoC slot. I'm not saying "get 3 Ravagers" is not sound advice, but it is offensive to the OP's intelligence... Afterall, if you're a Dark Eldar player you'll have to be a rookie or really slow to not have noticed that Ravagers are good.

Dark Eldar have lots of options. Apart from Reavers, Mandrakes and Scourges - plus a few special characters, we don't have anything that really is sub par by any other armie's standards except Space Wolves and IG. A Talos with twin-linked Haywire blasters can do just as well as a Ravager and cuts down on redundancy. But that isn't good advice either, if it's not tailored to the right player's list.

TL;DR: Immerse yourself in the list you're presented with before you blurt out tired old lines like a broken record.

EDIT: Sorry for the wrong forum post, I've asked to have it moved.
It's all about the number of poison shots/dark light weapons. Not the units that produce them. Ravagers are one more effecient means to aquire Dark Lances. Just as Trueborn are one the more effecient means to aquire Blasters but that doesn't mean you have to take them in sets of 3.

For example: I've received some critisism for using Hellions over Beastmasters. Few players remember that Hellions have splinterpods with a 30" threat radius. So for 288 points I can get 18 models/36 poison shots/54 S4 close combat attacks at I6. They also get "Power from Pain" easy to net pain tokens with that volume of fire power.

Now look at the Razorwing Fighter: For an additional 50 points over the price of the Ravager you get 4 S6 AP5 missles and a splinter cannon at the expense of a Dark Lance. It's a nice option for when you have 50 left over from the list and cannot afford another Venom + Unit attachment. For 1 turn the Razorwing will bring pain upon your opponents infantry before fullfilling a less effective Ravager.

Althought I prefer 1.33 Dark Lights per 100 points and 8.1 non splinter rifle poison shots per 100 points there's more then 1 way to get from A to B.
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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 06-02-11, 11:54 PM
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Good points raised. I know I've fallen into the old mech/melta trap before, only to face SW with no mech and two units of Long Fangs. Lists should have some flexibility. Seeing as though anyone can trawl through these lists, it would be pretty easy to know what to expect from DE if people continue with Ravager/Venom spam.
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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 06-29-11, 12:00 PM
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Hope this comes up as a quote...

BUT every Joe, Jane, Dick and their dog are repeating the same tired old line. "get 3 Ravagers".

So true, so true. I've realised this is like the oldCSM army list advice of Obliterators!!!! Even though the ravaged advice isn't tactically sound this oblate advice can be.

I agree with both the eldar fire dragon spam, and the oblit spam. People say that if you dont use these units youre list sucks. Thats absolutely horrible!! You can make up for fire dragons and oblits. Especially the obliterators! they are so obscenely expensive you could get so much more for not playing them. Fire dragons can be substituted for almost anything. I have found it much more useful to be completely unpredictable in my lists and playing nature, and doing the unexpected. Playing against lists like this is a nightmare.
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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 06-29-11, 12:15 PM
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With the release of 8th edition WFB I've also noticed these, evrybody and their cat tells you to put your infantry in hordes, which does have advantages but also take much of the personality out of an army.

The advice while sound is rather generic
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