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Solid info on Loyalist chapters derived from Traitor stock

6K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  Khorne's Fist 
#1 ·
Anything solid on this?

I have recently seen some talk that the Blood Ravens are in fact "Loyalist Thousand Suns" and that there is a supposed Ultramarine successor Chapter that is actually Iron Warriors.

Are there any others that we know of in detail and is any of this confirmed anywhere (yet)?

Thanks for your time and patience.
 
#3 ·
There are none confirmed in fluff. The utterly ridiculous "are they, are they not" with the Blood Ravens is so overwrought and overdone that I frankly don't give a flying fuck about them. It was Goto's inane ramblings and moonstruck ravings that gave us this particular piece of horseshit, and the "UM" chapter built from Iron Warriors? Sounds like fanfic to me.

One possible one is the Minotaurs - but they are a Chapter who has what has been described as a "chimeric" geneseed, made from splicing together several, and considering their close relations with the High Lords of Terra, and an "unkillable" Chapter Master, and that their active history is blocked by the Inquisition and High Lords. My personal belief is that it's based on the Sons of Horus (there was a story about how a craft called "the minotaur" attempted a suicide attack on traitor sons of horus during Isstvaan), mixed with something, but that's simply speculation.

The Grey Knights, it's not explicitly come out and said what's happened yet.



 
#14 ·
But does it make sense for the same group to found both organizations? I know the GK and the -I- work pretty closely obviously.
The first inquisitors and first knights errant/GKs were all presented to the emperor by Malcador at the same time. Personally I think Garro could end up as a proto Inquisitor rather than a GK, just from looking at the role he is fulfilling at the moment.

As for the Raven Guard, it's also interesting to note that the DE have tampered with their gene seed as well as the mess caused by the AL.
 
#19 ·
Two other things:

1. The Blood Ravens-Thousand Sons connection didn't become solid until the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons. I understand Black Library has tried to distance itself from that angle since, but it was a rather blatant one.

2. And speaking of blatant angles/connections, I sincerely hope the decision is never made to disconnect the Knights Errant from the Grey Knights. I can't see how that would be accomplished without it being a contrived move, purely to throw in an unnecessary "Gotcha!" twist.
 
#20 ·
Two other things:1. The Blood Ravens-Thousand Sons connection didn't become solid until the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons. I understand Black Library has tried to distance itself from that angle since, but it was a rather blatant one.
Really? I picked up a few hints since A Thousand Sons. Thief of Revelations (IIRC) for example.
 
#24 ·
40k Fluff seems to be of two minds when it comes to geneseed and the fate/nature of the marines it creates.

At some times it seems to be a wholly logical nurture-dominant narrative. The geneseed doesn't matter, unless it is somehow faulty. You could easily produce siege, void or special forces-esc chapters by chance or design from standard UM geneseed even though the UMs themselves are consumate masters of everything in the codex, which includes the whole range of Astartes tactics (and thus rather bland in practice, but in theory capable of anything).

At others, the fate or nature of a chapter seems derived in an occultic way from it's origins. There are references to Legions which already share their Primarch's nature in various ways before they ever meet. There are numerous numerological references presaging an eventual fate (Death Guard's 7 Great Companies, "The Original 7" referenced in Outcast Dead, for instance) and references to "cursed" geneseed. I have also seen references to Successor chapters which are basically patterned off their fore-bearers.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason for it. Logically though, there is no reason to link chapters by tactics to shared geneseed, or even vice-versa in most cases.

For instance; There seems to be nothing genetic that makes most UM successors follow the Codex to the letter; it's a choice and maybe some nurturing from their parent chapter, but there is no reason why it should be genetic in any way.

I suspect we really don't know that much about just what can and cannot be transmitted through the geneseed outside of physical features; like the Night Lord's eyes, the Space Wolves' teeth or the Salamander's rockin tan.

I think it's a matter of taste and experience, modified by need and culture for instance that causes a chapter to adopt any particular specialty over another, if any.

Say we had a chapter of loyalists derived from World Eaters. Minus the Butcher's Nails; why *couldn't* they be a chapter of reserved, taciturn warrior-monks? Loyalist Night Lords could manifest as anything; even unusually humanitarian Reasonable Marines.

However, if you had a plan from the start; say some Adeptus Terra or Mechanicus High-Muckety-Muck decides that what the Imperium really needs is to re-create the traitor legions in loyalist form; they might *or might not* use available hidden stockpiles of traitor geneseed. Or UMs, whatever. Unless there is, or they *believed* there was some reason that some of what they wanted ran in the blood.

This does conflict though with the chicken-egg aspect of the occultic fate or nature of certain geneseeds. The argument would fit well in 40K fluff that they are `born bad`, yoked to dark fates, ect. Aside from the fleshchange (and why, if they are thousand suns; do the Blood Ravens not suffer from that?), if you could fix that, is there something in the 1K-sons that makes them look at naughty books? or was that always Magnus?

This takes us down Alternate Universe Paths; like how would the Iron Warriors have turned out if they had been granted a more even hand in the Crusade? Or turn it on it's head; what if Robute Gulliman had been forced to become the master of seigecraft? Would he and his legion have turned from the grinding turmoil and become traitors? Certainly there are UM Successors who have gone rogue. if Loyalists can turn traitor, why couldn't traitor geneseed bear loyalist fruit? Certainly the example of the Knights errant seems to indicate it's as much a choice as a group culture.

Yet some Geneseed, particularly that which is more flawed or extreme; like the Space Wolves seems destined for a very particular role or failure. Say you could get a handle on the Canis Helix, enough to make the Wulfen only so bad a flaw as the Red Thirst or Black Rage, could you then make a Chapter of Wolves in say...Imperial Fists clothing? Space Wolves genetically, which fight and act like Imperial Fists. The Scrimshaw would be easy enough, but equally trivial ultimately.
 
#25 ·
I agree that there's a lot of grey area between what the geneseed affects, and what the Imperium believes it affects and thus acts upon. The combination of geneseed, planetary culture, founding history, available resources, and any number of other factors can influence the doctrines and traditions of a particular chapter. How much one factor influences a chapter compared to another could vary tremendously.

The Imperial Fist's particular brand of psychoindoctrination may be what's responsible for that geneseed-line's noticeable stubbornness. It might have nothing to do with the geneseed at all. On the other hand, a mis-handled batch of implants derived from perfectly good Ultramarine stock may lead to hyper aggression when in the presence of even minor warp phenomenon. That said, I feel it's a bit more complicated than just describing a geneseed as "faulty." There may be thousands, if not millions of minor differences between geneseed, even within the same chapter. Differences like, "Five percent more likely to have black carapace rejection." or, " Two percent more likely to find the slaughter of innocents amusing." Just thinking about the science behind it is mind boggling and why geneseed processing and implantation must be done with the strictest of rituals to keep such minor differences from compromising a newly implanted marine.

I will say that the Thousand Sons Flesh Change is just as likely to have been Tzeentch's directly meddling and not genetic at all. As if there were microscopic Marks of Tzeentch inscribed onto the Thousand Sons geneseed. Meaning it could be turned on and off at Tzeentch's will. Not saying there's really proof of it, but it is a possible explanation for why the Blood Ravens aren't affected by it, assuming they make use of the Thousand Sons geneseed at all.
 
#28 ·
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