Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

Arik Taranis theory (**Outcast Dead spoilers**)

25K views 67 replies 29 participants last post by  Angel of Blood 
#1 · (Edited)
The Thunder Warrior storyline in The Outcast Dead really got my brain spinning. I developed a little pet theory here that might interest you guys. I am in no way implying "this is the way it is" or anything. It's just for fun.

Arik Taranis is the ur Primarch
. The primarch before there were primarchs. The primarch of the Thunder Warriors, and by extension the ultimate badass primarch. As the Thunder Warriors were the template the big E used to build the Astartes, Arik was the template he used to build the primarchs. Here's my (purely anecdotal) evidence.

- It follows the unspoken rule of 40k : the further you go back in time, the more badass stuff is. In 40k the Astartes are reduced to chapters. Many of them have lost a number of their genetic enhancements. The Imperium is in shambles. The big E is a shell. But if you go back to the HH, you've got full power Astartes; the Imperium is at the top of it's game; the Emperor is ambulatory. If you go alllll the way back in time you end up with the C'Tan and the Necrontyr who are kind of the premier badasses of all time. Further, the Thunder Warriors are clearly stated to be more powerful than Astartes (the era of the TW was before HH). So it's not a giant stretch to assume that the TWs had a demigodlike leader in the form of a prototype primarch.

- In The Outcast Dead, it is stated that in no uncertain terms that there was no other living being in the galaxy save the Emperor himself who could have decoded the secrets of the geneseed as Arik eventually does. And he does it with like a RonCo Chemistry Set. That's a primarch level feat.

- Also in the Outcast Dead, it is strongly implied that the hyperbolic descriptions of the famous TW battles were not hyperbole. There is talk of Arik knocking down the "Azurite Tower" with his bare hands, and participating in mountain-sundering conflicts against techno-warlords. He has a laundry list of battle honors so long that even modern day Astartes are awestruck in his presence. These are the sorts of things you would attribute to a primarch.

- Ghota, his subordinate, fights 5 minor-hero level Astares essentially single-handedly to a stalemate, killing one of them. But he shows complete deference to Arik, implying he knows he is a lesser being.

- It would seem that Arik is at least several centuries old. And despite not being built to have the longevity of Astartes, he is somehow still alive. This seems to imply an extra level of potency you might expect to see from a particularly exceptional version of a TW.

- At the very end of the story when he successfully completes his research into the geneseed and Ghota asks "did it work?". He answers "Yes, my son." This is the sort of way you expect a primarch to address one of his, well, sons.

Edit : forgot one of the most important things. When Arik reveals himself in the temple, he projects an "aura too bright to look upon. His presence had a gravity all it's own, demanding all attention and fear." Atharva, a powerful Thousand Sons psyker "could barely stand to turn his psychic senses on him for fear of being overwhelmed." This is exactly the sort of ensorcellating aura that is associated with primarchs, and the Emperor.
 
See less See more
#2 · (Edited)
Your theory is interesting and sound. Sadly, though, this just means BL is making a cool character to be killed off at some point in another book. Mostly cause a rogue primarch(or equivalent) running around hasn't ever been mentioned anywhere in previous histories, so it'll be used in an interesting retcon of some kind. Kinda like "There was this one huge guy who was strong, and he was the reason (Insert HH-related event) happened! Neat, huh? Oh, and then he died."

One question though, could be an oversight on their part or JUST AS PLANNED: How is it that the Emperor doesn't know of this guy if he has such a resounding presence?
 
#45 ·
this just means BL is making a cool character to be killed off at some point in another book.
Like they did with Sarpeon of the Soul Drinker's Chapter after the mutations were discovered. The man kicked Tzeentch in the face God Damn it!! I cannot beleive they had him killed by a Imperial Fist. Ugh!! :ireful2:


Back to topic, so I am going to buy OutCast Dead and read it as it seems a good and interesting Fluff read. However I would like to make a few pointers/questions about the Outcasts and Arik himself.

From your Bulletins, Cowbellicus, you make him seems almost on par with the Emporer himself. He possibly discovered the secret of the gene-seed (of which only the Emporer currently knows that greedy bastard), quite the accomplished Warrior, and lead his men to victory against the odds. Is he possibly the Emporer's Equal?

Also Arik and the Outcast's, who from my limited undertsanding were captured Thunder Warrior's, managed to fight past the Custodes with little but their bare hands and primitive weapons. Does this make them better than the Adeptus Custodes, who are suppose to be the most Elite form of Astartes in the Imperium?

Finally Arik was supposedly killed, but as Cowbellicus clearly points out he is very much alive in the novel. It also seems he possibly discovered the secret to the Gene-Seed at the end of the book. Does this mean he is still around, possibly creating a new Astartes Legion
 
#3 ·
Ok but seriously outcast dead isnt very ....reliable,theres no proof that overall Thunder warriors are superior, other than a thunder warrior saying it, the fight, well many fights in that book were ridiculous like the world eater against the custodes.
also i think soul gazer is right.
and that Fabius Bile could clone (imperfectly) Horus
 
#4 ·
Hah, unless Arik is the guy Trazyn has. Somehow. That'd be a way to get rid of him. No, I have no evidence to back this up, it just sounded kinda funny.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Yeah, I don't think Arik would be an actual capital P Primarch. But more like a prototype version of the real thing. You could also spin this sort of like how back in the day Intel used to take 486 DX chips in the factory, sever a few connections to the FPU and market it as the crappier 486 SX. Maybe the Emperor took whatever it is that Arik is, toned a few things down and cranked up the Primarch program. That would be one way of not breaking continuity anyways.

Personally, I think the coolest way to use him in the HH would be as some sort of critical savior figure that never made it into the history books. Like he shows up at a key moment and fights off Angron, Fulgrim and Perturabo at the same time to prevent some super disaster from occurring. That sort of fight would certainly qualify as a "continent shattering" sort of thing that he seems to be familiar with :) So he maintains his crazy that-has-to-be-a-legend-and-can't-be-real place in the lore. Or hell, toss him into the Eye of Terror and time warp him forward to 40k to play some sort of key role. He kind of comes across as a This Is A Guy That Gets Anything Done character and it would be a shame if they just randomly off him in a dumb way.
 
#8 ·
That is EXTREEEEEEEMELY unlikely. Judging by the various comments in The First Heretic, the closest thing the Custodes have to a Primarch is the big E himself, though even he isn't their primarch in the sense of how the real Primarchs are to their legions. The one Custodes, at one point, remarks that they are the Emperor's true or favourite sons or something along those lines and Lorgar refers to them as genetic overspill.

A theory that I believe is that Custodes are possibly what Primarchs would have been without being warp infused. It would also make sense to me, as both the creation of Custodes and Primarchs is a unique process for each individual, as we see in Deliverance Lost when Corax examines the primarch templates.

As for Arik, I think he could have been genetically created to be the leader of the thunder warriors and the Emp gave him that Primarch-like aura to inspire loyalty from the warriors he led. It would make sense to me then how he's been alive for so long despite a TW's limited shelf life, as he was made to be more than just a 'regular' TW.
 
#9 ·
As I see the Thunder Warriors, through the lens of TOD, they are physically stronger and more resilient than the Astartes. They really struggle in their fights against their forbearers and looked to be doomed before they were amde the offer in the temple.
Where the Astartes seem to have the edge is mentally. There seems to have been some trade-off made for strength and resilience for mental stability.
Arik could just be someone on whom the transformation process was especially suited, allowing it to work to the fullest of its potential, bestowing seeming extra strength and abilities, just as the Astartes process has different results when used on different people.
As for the Big E not being aware of Arik; who says he's not? We don't know a fraction of what the Emperor knows, or what his plans may be concerning what he knows. He may be leaving Arik for a time, content at what his former Champion is doing. For all that he is astoudingly intelligent and driven, in such climactic times he may still be an irrelevance , although I doubt it.
It may also be that there will be a series about the Scouring when the HH series has finished. we may be seeing the fluff being seeded with characterd who may play a later part in the action, or who may be seen as having something to do with the genesis of later events.
What might be fun is if Valdor is killed during the Siege/Boarding of Horus' flagship, and Arik takes his place as head of Custodes. Not a shred of a hint that this might be the way the story will go, but fun nontheless!

GFP
 
#10 ·
Just going to point this out to you and others, like i constantly do at my local GW store especially to the manager. Valdor wasn't at the siege of Terra as he was still on his way back from Prospero when the battle was being fought.
 
#14 ·
As for what happens to this guy during the Terra Seige portion of the series the EC are running around his neighborhood. I wanna see our one and only Lucius spar up, strength vs skill.
 
#15 ·
This is just a random thought, but what if Taranis is linked with the Terminus decree? After all, if someone was needed to fix the golden throne/ the emperor, then this guy...
- In The Outcast Dead, it is stated that in no uncertain terms that there was no other living being in the galaxy save the Emperor himself who could have decoded the secrets of the geneseed as Arik eventually does. And he does it with like a RonCo Chemistry Set. That's a primarch level feat.
... would be the one to do it.
 
#17 ·
I don't know. Arik and his lackey are certainly presented as very powerful individuals, but I'm leery to accept two survivors (of the "heroic" template, at that) as indicative of all their kind. I mean, if you read the "Space Wolf" novels, Haeger is unmatched in terms of physical strength and stature - even after numerous comparisons (and fights) with other Space Marines. Similarly, Pasanius (of "Ultramarines Omnibus" fame) is notably bigger and stronger than other Ultramarines (and suffers from none of Haeger's embarassing girth). The two Thunder Warriors, removed two centuries from their hayday, might simply be wistfully projecting their own heroic stature and prowess on their memories of their comrades.

Alternately, Thunder Warriors might have all been bigger and stronger... but that might have come at the cost of the psychopathically violent tendencies that we see Arik and Co displaying. If we take Guilliman's word for granted in "Know No Fear", the Emperor quite likely wanted his Astartes to be much more than just warriors (as with the Thunder Warriors and other, earlier, implied creations). Their aloof/apart from humanity warrior mentality might have just been a product of the total warrior culture they were immersed in. An Astartes could be good at virtually anything*, though - it just depends what kind of doctrine they were raised/educated with.

Cheers,
P.

* Think about it. Effectively immortal, blessed with eidetic memory, incredibly analytical and calculating minds... An Astartes would be an incredibly efficient administrator, law enforcer, user of technology, etc.
 
#18 ·
they are also good with technology, see the tech priests :)

I had a thought from reading this thread, aren't we still looking for official primarchs for the custodes and the GK??

Well the big E could be the custodes or GKs and this TW could of been the template for the Primarchs. All the fluff says that the Emperor created them but I don't remember reading that he created him using his own genetic coding.
 
#20 ·
I had a thought from reading this thread, aren't we still looking for official primarchs for the custodes and the GK??
Neither had/have Primarchs. The Grey Knights were forged from the "Emperor's own flesh and soul", whilst the Custodians were born of an older and more formative process which was then refined and simplified to produce the Legio Astartes.
 
#19 ·
I may be making this up, but I always thought the Custodes were the first. That they were the original template but the big E figured out they would 'grow' too slow. So he scrapped it, made 10k of them and called them bodyguards while he went off and looted chaos.

I always fancied that eventually the Custodes would develop psychic powers and become full on demi-gods...I know this part is made up. :)
 
#22 ·
"This guy" being Arik Taranis? No. He was a Thunder Warrior, one of the first generation of genetically enhanced Imperial shock-troops used in the Unification Wars that were all believed to have been subsequently destroyed at the Battle of Mount Ararat (IIRC). Whilst the Emperor may have borrowed some of the technology or process used in their creation to create the Legio Custodes, it would not be accurate to then label a single Thunder Warrior as the 'Primarch' of the Custodians in a mock comparison with the actual Primarchs and their Legio Astartes.

Only the Astartes had Primarchs, there doesn't need to be such direct gene-fathers for all of the Imperium's genetically enhanced super soldiers
 
#23 ·
I just had an awesome realization here. The Petitioner's City by the palace is in the Himalayas. Specifically, Nepal.

Nepal lays claim to what is arguably the most badass group of warriors of all time : The Gurkhas. A little googling will turn up some astonishing things about them. So brave were they, there's a famous joke:

http://www.timshen.truepath.com/preach/gurkha_courage.htm

Anyway, here's the thing: The highest rank in the Gurkhas is "Subedar".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurkha
And how does Ghota address Babu Dhakal? "My Subedar"

Intentional or not, tying Arik and the Thunder Warriors to some of the premier badasses of all time is pretty awesome.

More cool Gurkha stuff:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2011/...d-gurkha-against-a-train-with-40-bandits.html
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/pun.html
 
#24 · (Edited)
You left out the most important evidence

Interesting. I also suspect that Arik was the Primarch of the Thunder Warriors, but you have left out the most important evidence.

The definition of a Primarch in the 40K universe is that the Primarch is the progenitor of the geneseed which is used to create his future 'sons'. For Arik to be considered a true Primarch, the Thunder Warriors must have geneseed. Arik shows the Outcast Dead his redactor, which is used to extract geneseed and is clearly not an modern space marine redactor. This proves the Thunder warriors had geneseed. We may not know what differences were in the Thunder warrior geneseed from the modern space marines, but we do know one of the Thunder warriors, Ghota, has acidic phlegm.

Now, the real question is still, was the geneseed created outside his body and implanted, or was he 'remade' with the geneseed growing within him until it was mature enough to be implanted in other recruits? Either way, he was the probably the first and as we know, geneseed absorbs the traits of the implantee and passes them on to future generations, which means they were still his 'sons'.

When Arik is pondering the fate of the current Space Marines, he muses 'I wonder if the Primarchs know that they will be discarded when the Crusade is over (I am paraphrasing here)". He doesn't wonder about the Space Marines, he wonders about the Primarchs.

The two other differences between Arik and Rogal Dorn are telling. Arik was not created, he was 'remade' and does not remember who he was before. Unlike the other primarchs, Arik exudes an aura of fear, whereas the 20 created Primarchs exude an aura that seems to make people want to prostrate themselves before them.
 
#27 ·
I always got the impression from The Outcast Dead that the reason for the superior physical strength of the Thunder Warriors was precisely because of their inferior genetic template.

They had great strength, but their bodies rapidly deteriorated as a result. The Astartes were much more refined and stable albeit not as physically strong.
 
#36 ·
I always got the impression from The Outcast Dead that the reason for the superior physical strength of the Thunder Warriors was precisely because of their inferior genetic template.
Arik himself ponders the question whether the Emperor created the Thunder Warriors knowing that they would eventually be discarded and built in the decay factor into their genetic structure.

But the real answer to the question is how long will Arik and Ghota live after they have implanted their newly created geneseed(?). At the very least, it will stop the decay of their bodies. At best, they may live as long as a regular space marine.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I speculate that the limited shelf life of the Thunder Warriors stems from that unlike the future astartes and their primarchs, they were not warp infused. Thusly they would eventually sicken and die, after the implanted power in their bodies was spent. Burning themselves up at an accelerated rate.

Delving into more speculation here, it have been hinted at several times that the Emperor made a deal with the chaos powers for knowledge to build the primarchs. Most have just believed it a lie, but what if theres a kernel of truth in it?

Might not have involved dealings with the gods as claimed, but running out of time and seeing the limitations of pure genecrafted warriors, he went to the warp to infuse the beings of his newest creations with the ability to draw upon warp energy to empower themselves. Effectively building perpetually recharging batteries into the primarchs and the astartes, and why I think Arik Tarannis is so keen to aquire the geneseed of the outcast dead as a way to save himself and the remnants of the Thunder Warriors.

Edit: I hazard a guess that Arik Tarranis is the first attempt at infusing warp energy into someone as the peak of the thunder warrior project, but it did not work out perfectly even if it created a powerful warrior. So he went to the option of handcrafting the Primarchs from the bottom up, to make sure -every- gene was tuned and aligned to absorb warp energy. Only so much you can do with a being starting as a mortal man.
 
#29 ·
Just stringing together a few 'facts' we do have on the Unification Wars:
1. The Unification Wars took about 600 years according to Legion
2. The Legions Astares were stong enough individual fighting forces to participate in and effectively conclude the Unification Wars, not the Thunder Warriors, as explained in TOD with an excellent example of the Thousand Sons prosecuting one of the last free-standing countries(?) in Prospero Burns (or is it A Thousand Sons?).
3. The Primarch Project, by inference, was in development at least 100 years if not more before the conclusion of the Unification Wars.
4. The Custodes were already a stable and effective fighting force for the Emperor while the Primarchs were still gestating in their uber-test tubes, as indicated in The First Heretic.

I bring all these up as the Thunder Warriors were an early stage in the Emperor's genetic program that proably started long before the end of Old Night, so he could conclude the Unification Wars and prosecute the Great Crusade once the Warp Storms cleared up. That would suggest that the Thunder Warriors were proably in development up to 1,000 years before the start of the GC. It would be silly to think the Emperor would sit back on his laurels (no pun intended) when the development process of the TWs would lead to whole new avenues of advancement in the processes/intentions/needs for the next generation of super warriors.

The Custodes were the precursors to the Primarch Project and are incredibly strong individual fighters, have unknown longevity, and apparently unshakable loyalty, all of which sound like good evolutions from the Thunder Warriors. The Primarchs/Astares go freaky uber-human on the Primarch side of the equation, making lots of mini-me's on the Primarch side for the Emperor, with lots of group-think super warriors that can be produced both quickly and stably, compared to the Thunder Warriros. The Primarchs/Astares also have apparently unlimited longevity, considering there are Dreadnoughts with entombed Astares still creeping around from the Heresy.

Then you have the development initiated by Corax in Deliverance Lost, which is a whole step farther than what the Emperor did with the original Astares and is hinted to be on the level of Grey Knights in strenth/speed/reaction time, with a three week baking cycle. This is not to mention whatever the Emperor/Malcador does to enable the GKs to be that much above and beyond the Astares. In one of the UM books, a GK knows two UMs aren't infected with Chaos because he handily kicks both their asses in an unarmored/armed fight.

Shit, I had no intention about the length of the post, but this seems like rational 40K scientific evolution that all takes place over the space of an entire millennia. On a scientific basis, you could argue each generation was created by the earlier one, as I imagine the Emperor didn't start from scratch each time.
 
#30 ·
#32 ·
I suspect you missed one of the most important aspects of Arik being a Primarch.
The Thunder Warriors used redactors to extract their geneseed (why else need
a redactor). The question then becomes, who was the source for the original
geneseed? The telling "My son" at the very end of the story carries more weight
if you know that the Thunder Warriors had Geneseed.

Another indication that Thunder Warriors are prototypes for the Astares is that
when Ghota spits on the ground and walks away, the saliva starts to eat away
at the ground as any Space Marines saliva would do.

There is no indication that the Custodes had geneseed, as far as I can tell.

The other point is that Arik appears to be a very powerful psycher. Only when
Arik appears at the church entrance, does the Word Bearer sense their pursuers.
Arik tells his that he has only now ALLOWED the Word Bearer to sense them.
 
#33 ·
I suspect you missed one of the most important aspects of Arik being a Primarch.
The Thunder Warriors used redactors to extract their geneseed (why else need
a redactor). The question then becomes, who was the source for the original
geneseed? The telling "My son" at the very end of the story carries more weight
if you know that the Thunder Warriors had Geneseed.
This is good reasoning, but I think the reason that Arik had an extractor was a need to get the geneseed of an Astares, not for use on themselves. Otherwise, there's no mention of the Thunder Warriors actually having geneseed.

The 'my son' comment could have been his use as a template for other Thunder Warriors, but that still doesn't indicate it's due to geneseed, which was a tool of mass-production. In 'Deliverance Lost', it's shown that
I can see the same model being used by the Emperor for Thunder Warrior production, who seem to have been more vat-grown than regular humans who are mutated by the geneseed, which itself is an enhancement for the mass-production needed to prosecute the Great Crusade.
 
#38 ·
Well if you think about it. The Thunder Warriors are beings that runs on too small batteries, crashing and burning when its drained. Whereas Astartes have a perpetual battery. But remove the progenoids from a still living Astartes, and his enhanced physiology starts to shut down, as they regulate the other organs. Theres been multiple ocassions of an Astartes feeling emasculated, or just like a mere man after his progenoids have been purloined. Such as that imperial fist in Malodrax. They have great significance for an Astartes, as they are their living link to their primarch and what which pushes them beyond mortal limits.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top