Boyz before Toyz (Simple mistake in writing ork lists) - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-10, 01:18 AM Thread Starter
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Default Boyz before Toyz (Simple mistake in writing ork lists)

Anyone who has been reading my posts recently has heard me scream this catch cry at every opportunity. The fact is that it is a very true statement when it comes to Orks, and very prevalent when building an effective list.

Firstly, Look here please

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=39703

Culler has done good.

So, I have seen some ork lists and questions around here which are asking some basic questions which I should try and take care of here.

1. Boyz before Toyz

The backbone of every Ork army is the boyz. We have all of 2 troop choices and they must be used effectively.

Boyz: Either big groups of them or don't bother.
  • On foot: Nothing less than 20 boyz
  • In Trukk or Battlewagon: Max out the boyz

Every squad needs a nob and a PK. Kinda like people will say about SM and powerfists, it is the same for orks. It makes them versatile, and can hurt the big guys and tanks.

Special Weapons:
Stickbombs: While I am not a fan as in big mobs they start to add up in points and are fairly pointless, they can be useful in some squads but all in all if you know what you are doing you should have no problem. (boyz before toyz)

Quote:
By AvatarADV:
The problem with stikkbombs is that they only make a difference in situations where the enemy has the same initiative as Orks or worse. There aren't that many of those instances. So you're taking an upgrade that (a) has only situational utility (must charge into terrain) and (b) has only some situational utility (enemy must have initiative < 4). There's also (c), "enemy unit must be a threat in CC" - if they're only going to knock out one or two boyz before your counterattack sweeps them off the table, there's not a lot of point in paying points to get to go first.
Big Shootaz:
Choppa Boyz: NEVER put them in choppa squads. You will be running for the enemy and they will be pointless

Shoota Boyz: If you have the points for them, get them, if not don't bother. They are great point fillers.

Rokkit Launcher:
Choppa Boyz: (as above) NEVER put them in choppa squads. You will be running for the enemy and they will be pointless

Shoota Boyz: Well here is one of the main reasons I am writing this article. They are expensive and yet they are pointless. Shootaz are made to shoot infantry. Assuming you Max a squad out with 30 Orks, you get 3 rokkit shots at BS2. Whoop-d-do. Even you manage to get a hit you have still shot all 30 orks at the tank effectively wasting 54 shots.

'Ard Boyz: Honestly, your choice, I would never use them because I would rather another group of boyz (as my in boyz before toyz creed) but I see their use.

Nobz in The squads: If you don't take them you are stupid... (you know who I am talking to)

Power Klaw: They will help you take out special Chars and tanks alike. Do it or die. Power Klaws rock.

Big Choppa: No... Just no "denying armor saves is far more important than higher strength"

Bosspole:Every ork squad needs a bosspole. well worth it's points. Re-rolling is just great

Gretchins

Gretchins are unimportant. which is why no one shoots at them. They are awesome, They can be used as a shield for your better units (e.g. lootaz) and they can take objectives. Plus they are cheaper than chips. Here's a tip

If you are taking large groups, take 19 instead of 20 or 29 instead of 30. This will mean you are not forced to take a runtherd for that extra 1. (if you can that is)

Quote:
By mynameisgrax:
I LOVE GROTS! They draw no enemy fire, and sit on objectives for you, winning you games. What would you rather have sit on an objective in your deployment zone: 46 points of grots or 170 points worth of boyz?
----------------------------------

Ok these don't have much to do with toyz you can give squads, but important none the less, as I seem to see more elites than I see troops... This is the wrong way to build a competitive army. Elites are good, just not when they use 3/4 of your army's points

Elites:

Nobz: Nobz, when you start kitting them out they become expensive. Very expensive. On top of that they don't do anything different to what normal boyz do. So why not get another full squad of boyz rather than a small squad of nobz. IMPORTANT! This does not include Nob Bikers

Nobz simply don't have a niche in the Ork army. No matter what your reason is for using them, you'd be better off with something else, either meganobz, biker nobz, or regular slugga boyz.
'Eavy armor (not worth it, since they already have cybork)
Big choppas (denying armor saves is far more important than higher strength)
Combi-rokkits (a 1 in 3 chance of getting a single rokkit hit once per game? No thanks)
Twin-liked shootas (meganobz get these for free)

Nob Bikers: These don't have a codex entry, but they have more of a place in an ork list than Nobz ever will. I had a write up on this, but it was said better here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimzzen View Post
The biggest I can think of are wound allocation, T5, FNP, 24" of movement /w a 3+ cover save, multitude of wargear options.
Meganobz: They have their place. They can do something that no one else in an ork list can do. They have awesome armour, PK's and combi-scorchers, plus they go great with your chosen leader. Just make sure you throw them into a transport, I can not stress that enough. They will die if you don't. That transport is a battlewagon, I can't stress this enough

Burna Boyz: Lots of Flamers and Power weapons. YAY! I consider these guys the most under-rated guys in the Dex. Use them correctly people. Guys in cover flamer the crap out of them, not in cover, charge the crap out of them. It is the best way to wipe out a unit. At one point I loved the idea of firing with half of them and charging with the other half, but I can't do that anymore.

Tank Bustaz:

-They have to shoot at transports, and will most likely get LoS to them, so they have to.
-They need a transport or will get killed quickly, and they can't take a dedicated one.
-Warbuggies and Deffkoptas won’t get as many hits, but since the Tankbustas need a transport, the other options are far more cost effective, and better at sneaking around to get side/back armor. Lootas are almost as strong as Tankbustas, get far more hits, can fire from across the board, and freely fire at anything they like. Meganobz get dedicated transports and combi-scorchas, allowing them to be effective against virtually any unit in the game.

Tank bustaz in my opinion, useless. Redundant to death.

Lootaz: Bread and butter... that is all

Ok fine, I will explain. Lootaz are the real tank bustaz, they get a stupid amount of Dakka and are able to rip apart anything within range. They are cheap and effective in a Mech army or a footslogging army, and well anything in between.

They are by no means necessary but in my opinion they are the most cost effective unit besides boyz.

Kommandos: Needs Snikrot, if you want to take away the randomness.

They are just great... There is way too many way to run these guys and way too many tactics to use. I will discuss them later if need be. They are great distraction, they can be very hurty and wipe out entire units and scream for more

-----------------------------
Transporting you orks

Trukks: Well well well... 12 boyz with sluggaz racing towards the enemy like a freight train outa hell, YEE HAW. Then they explode to a stray bolter shot and they are left to slog of foot, a bit sad really. Anyway here's what is useful and what is not. Remember trukks are wrapping paper and nothing more
  • Red Paint Job - Not expensive and allows you to move further... not pointless, but not great either. Honestly only put in if you have the extra points lying around (and honestly you
    shouldn't have extra points lying around)
  • Grot riggers: I have never seen a trukk that didn't die, you will not get moving again with riggers. So no.
  • Stikkbomb chukka: More pointless than stikkbombs
  • Armour plates: Once again, if you are lucky enough to get shot and not killed then more luck too ya. Armour is only worth it if you have the points (but I would go PRJ)
  • Boarding Plank: If you think you are going to be able to get your nob to hit a passing LR then go for your life. I however rarely see that happen... so no
  • Wreckin' Ball: No, no explaintion should be needed here. Pointless.
  • Reinforced ram: Here's an interesting one, that a lot of people debate about. Personally I love them, but only use them rarely. The ability to make it though terrain heavy boards is just a fantastic thing to have on your side... but like everything else, costs points and orks are always trying to cut down on wasted points... this may be it for you
Battlewagon: Bread and butter of the competitive mech list. They are awesomeness in a can.
Can transport more than a trukk, has more survivability and have a myriad of options... although not all useful
  • Killkannon: If the wagon is moving, don't bother with the kannon. (Hint: the wagon should always be moving)
  • 'ard case: Removes firepoints and access points and you can't get the charge once you jump out... I suggest pointless. Although I have seen people play a deathstar approach with nobz, that could be interesting, so unless you have a very unique idea of how it should work, don't bother, it wrecks you more than helps.
  • Deff rolla: YES! Every wagon should have a rolla. They are orks best attack against AV 14 and annoying squishy marines. I have crushed many a tank with one and will recommended them to everyone. And that points costs is a beautiful thing
  • Red Paint Job: Red Paint Job - Not expensive and allows you to move further... not pointless, but not great either. Honestly only put in if you have the extra points lying around (and honestly you shouldn't have extra points lying around)
  • Grot Riggers: Useful, but not necessary. I frequently use them to keep my wagons moving, and they do a great job
  • stikkbomb chukka: No... pointless and crap
  • Armour Plates: See Grot Riggers. They keep a wagon moving and that is ok with me... but I will cull them if I need points
  • Boarding plank: If you think you are going to be able to get your nob to hit a passing LR then go for your life. I however rarely see that happen... so no
  • Wreckin' Ball: No, no explaintion should be needed here. Pointless.
  • Grabin' klaw: waste of points
  • Reinforced ram: Use the deff rolla... so no
  • Any of the Big Gunz: No... same as kill kannon
  • Kannon
    Lobba
    Zzap gun
  • Big Shoota: Take 1 or 2 as standard (only take 2 as spare points, this is where my priority goes) They are not for shooting but they stop weapon destroyed becoming immobilized
  • Rokkit Launchers: No, waste of points when you can just use big shootaz
Looted wagons

I have a personal vendetta against looted wagons, they take up useful HS choice slots and have that annoying "Don't Press dat" special rule so even the boomgun becomes a pointless waste.
  • Boomgun: as mentioned above, make hard to recommend while don't press dat is ever present. Although it is good, take kannons instead (and defiently don't take it if you plan on useing it as a transport.)
  • Skorcha: Waste of points. It will die before getting a shot off
  • Big Shoota: take 1 to stop being immobilized
  • Rokkit Launcha: No, you won't hit anything anyway
  • 'ard case: If useing for the boomgun, take it, if useing for transport don't
  • Red Paint Job: Not expensive and allows you to move further... not pointless, but not great either. Honestly only put in if you have the extra points lying around (and honestly you shouldn't have extra points lying around)
  • grot riggers: possibly. While they are stronger than trukks they will still probably die, if you have the points take 'em
  • stikkbomb chukka: No
  • Armour plates: same as grot riggers
  • Boarding plank: If you think you are going to be able to get your nob to hit a passing LR then go for your life. I however rarely see that happen... so no
  • Wreckin' Ball: No, no explaintion should be needed here. Pointless.
  • Grabbin' klaw: same... pointless
  • Reinforced ram: Here's an interesting one, that a lot of people debate about. Personally I love them, but only use them rarely. The ability to make it though terrain heavy boards is just a fantastic thing to have on your side... but like everything else, costs points and orks are always trying to cut down on wasted points... this may be it for you

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok guys and girls, This was a brief summary that I was writing that got out of hand and I have been sitting here for over an hour.

Just to be clear. I do not consider elites Toyz, but they not an absolute necessity nor can an ork army function without some sort of backup (just boyz doesn't work either... actually that's not true, they are effective just as as much as they could be)

The whole purpose of this was boyz before toyz. Orks need boyz, while ork elites are good, ork vehicles are good. Ork boyz will tear entire armies apart.

Well, I guess I will add more later. If you have a request as to what I should go into next, PM me

YOU NEED TROOPS!

P.S. If you want me to go more in depth about anything in the Dex (nothing that violates the rules) post a request and I will do some writeups and post them in more specific topics.

P.P.S Remember, these are not hard and fast rules. Uniqueness makes you orky.


...
Similar Articles:
Waaagh - Da Big Book of Sneaky Ork Tactics by Kronus
Ork Army-Building Tactica by Culler
In Depth: Ork Character Tactica by Tossy
Green Horde Tactica by The Sullen One
Ork Warbuggy vs Deffkopter by mercer
Other Articles:
List Building by anarchyfever
Mathhammer Tactica (or Warhammer Probability 101) by Culler
Tactica 101:Thoughts on Appropriate and Reasonable Tactics for Every Situation by IntereoVivo
Evil Assault Tactics by Tim/Steve
Transport Tactics by Sethis

Last edited by bishop5; 01-06-11 at 02:38 PM.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-10, 01:56 AM
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Would you mind if i saved your post for later reference? I would like to add your information to my reading. I thank you for posting!
Snikrot and Kommandos= A pain in the other army's ass.

Kommandos are on my buy list right after another box of boyz. Im looking forward to your next post.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-10, 03:15 AM Thread Starter
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save away. I wrote it for people to read and take what they can from it
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-10, 05:20 AM
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I agree with you about almost everything especially the burna boyz being the most udnerrated unit in the dex. Thier big draw back is they can't take a nob to lead them so thier low Ld makes them a flight risk if they take damage. So you have to put a warboss or other character with them which is not bad especially having them as the bosses body guard.

Otherwise nice job on the write up.


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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-13-10, 05:41 AM
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Looks good. I was considering writing a similar article.

The only thing i would disagree with is the Burnas.
Yes they are underrated, yes they are awesome, and yes they kill anything they flame.
However, i would advise against assaulting with them.

Only 3 attacks on the charge (or 2 if they get charged), and a max of 15 in a squad means that it really hurts having I2(3).
Best case scenario, you get the charge against a MEQ, lets say vanilla-CSM.
On average, you will lose 5 models, and then kill about 7 in return, winning combat by only 2. The next round of combat they counter-assault with another unit, wiping you out completely (or best case scenario, you fall back on Ld2, and keep falling back). Killing 7 marines with a 225 point unit is generally fail.

On the other hand, you can flame them from the comfort of a Battlewagon. Hitting just 4 out of the 10 models will kill the whole unit on average (60 hits, 30 wound, 10 failed saves).

Im not saying you should NEVER have them in combat, there are certain times when you can benefit more from charging with them, but 9 times out of 10 they are better off staying in the Battlewagon and flaming.
You just need to remember that they are a VERY expensive unit, each model has only I2, S3, and 6+ save, yet costs the same as a marine. Like Lootas, protection is critical.


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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-13-10, 02:41 AM Thread Starter
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This tactica has been updated to include transports... will add more later.

if you have a request as to what I should do a write up on next, PM me, or write it here
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-13-10, 04:34 AM
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All i have to mention is nob squad with painboy and warboss. This combo not even mentioned i mean this in a truck or battle wagon very dangerous is it no?? I mean i am not an orc player but i am just curious as to why this combo, from which i have seen can be very successful, was skimmed over?

Mainly because i am tempted to run an orc army because i love CC so much since its the one place where u can wipe out more than one unit per one of ur own units.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-13-10, 06:49 AM
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Boyz can generally do everything that Nobz can.
Boyz can take on almost anything in combat, and win.
A unit of Nobz is slightly better if you want to take on MC's and stuff, but considering a squad of Nobz is over 3 times the price, id rather 3 squads of Boyz.
Leave the MC killing to Lootas, and finish off the last couple of wounds with Boyz if you want.


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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-13-10, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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You are correct. As KoC said they are a point sink, they are great but 60 boyz are also great.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-14-10, 03:44 PM
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While i agree that boys can do nearly every thing in cc that nobs can do there are some things they do a lot better.

I like them a lot because they keep the body's in your army down a bit (to a point ofc) especially on higher point games.

They are not nearly as unwieldy as a unit of 20 - 30 boys so your not so limited by how the terrain is set up, and seeing that they can usually take as much or more fire than a squad of boys i think its fairly balanced (i usually take a squad of 7 upgraded to 290 points with a painboy 2xpk 2xbc 2xbosspole a waaaghbanner and cyborg).
Or if you want some speed put them on bikes, they make great hammer units and take a lot of fire before they go down.

Last week i took a squad of 3 nob bikers (pb pk and bc) and a warboss in a 1250 pnt game and the first turn i had them turbo boost for the 3+ saves and let em stand right in the open. In the enemy's shooting phase everything (he was playing csm) shot at the nobs and they survived it with the pk nob who was unwounded and the warboss who lost 1 wound, they then proceeded to wipe out a 8 man plague marine squad and a 10 man squad of marines in cc (and at the start of his turn 3 my skumgrod surrendered)


I'm not saying stack your army with nobs, because that most likely wont work but from when you have your base amount of boys (50 - 60 for me) it is imo a good choice to take.

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Last edited by Herr-Flick; 09-14-10 at 03:49 PM.
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