Eldar Vyper Tactics

 
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  #1 Old 02-18-08, 08:01 AM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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Tactica Vyper

Welcome to the first installment of my Tactica's

As I sit here deciding how to approach talking tactica Vyper, I look at my two Vypers, one Scatter laser + Shuriken cannon and the other Star Cannon and Shuriken cannon.

Rolls of the Vyper
There rolls are totally different to each other, one, Star cannon toting Vyper, goes after high priority targets, Terminators for example. The other has a more varied roll, with its Scatter laser; it has the ability to take on light armoured targets such a Rhinos or Raiders, and/or Horde infantry. The roll of the Vyper is very important topic and this is where I shall begin.

Going back to the 3rd edition, the Vyper, was a very simple set up for most players, Star cannon and maybe Crystal Matrix Targeting (CMT), it was a beast, good range, good number of shots and filled a very important roll of anti marine.

But with the onset of the 4th edition, many Eldar players where left scratching there heads, no CMT and lots of nerfing to there precious Star cannon, reduced in shots too two, and the final preverbal nail in the coffin, a price hike, Its main battlefield roll had gone, so the Vyper felt a no choice to some people.

The old Star cannon Vyper costing 65pts and the new Vyper 70pts with a drop in performance and a price hike, its not looking good at all for the Vyper.

All these changes have resulted in, the once very popular Vyper, taken by almost every craftworld, now has been rendered almost dead. I and Iím sure many others, saw the Vyper as nothing more that a friendly list unit and not to be taken in a tournament environment and quickly sort out alternatives.

But, after playing a few games with these Vypers I mentioned above, I began to climb the learning curve, after initially shunning the Vyper for more shiny units. I began to think, sure the Vyper the 3rd edition is dead, but the base Vyper stayed the same and that is something I can build on.

Rise of the Shuriken cannon
This is the weapon that can bring the Vyper back from the abyss, a dual Shuriken cannon Vyper will cost you a full 10pts less now, than it did back in the 3rd edition. This makes a huge difference, when calculating cost v performance issues. Its not the turret Shuriken cannon that makes the Vyper, itís the hull mounted cannon, it doubles the amount of shots the Vyper can dish out and allows some intriguing tactical opportunities, to a canny tactician who can exploit them.

Weapon Options-
Starting with the basic Vyper, Shuriken cannon + twin linked Shuriken catapults, this is nothing to write hope about at all, on the other hand. A Vyper equipped with Bright lance, Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones and Holofields, will be setting you back, almost the same points as a Wave serpent, so neither for me is a viable choice.

Dual Cannon Vyper- This is one of the more viable options for the Vyper, its cheap, keeps a very low threat priority, as its low range, and high AP, as its so fast, I can bring these extra 6 strength 6 shot where ever I want them on the battlefield, and for 60pts, itís a bargain.

Scatter Laser Vyper- Reduced fire power from the Dual Cannon Vyper, but the sacrifice is made for extra range and safety, makes a great escort vehicle.

Scatter Laser + Cannon Vyper- One of my favourite combos, makes an excellent horde hunter and in combination with the Vypers speed, it can make a great vehicle hunter, 70pts for 7 strength 6 shots at the side armour, most medium AV vehicles are going to take a hit sooner or later with this combo.

Star Cannon + Cannon Vyper- This is another favourite of mine, with still a good number of shots, coming it at 5, it still packs a punch against horde and now marines, with its low AP Star Cannon, this Vyper now has a totally new roll in the Eldar army from the 3rd edition, this Vyper now picks at units not destroys them, the Star cannon has evolved and we have to adapt to use it.

EML Vyper- This is a risky combo, most Eldar players will say this, single AP3 shots will on average hit only 50% of the time. But range is a key factor keeping the Vyper out of harms way while it take pot shots at enemy armour, but with its blast template and low AP, it now become a viable horde hunter as well. Its cheaper than the Star cannon and Bright lance platforms and itís a very viable platform in the 4th edition.

Bright lance Vyper- This for me, it not a viable option, as I said above, its just too expensive, Iím not saying donít take it, but I feel there are better options out there, like the EML for one. I also prefer to use the Vypers mobility to get a side/rear shot, than take a tank head on.

key points to think about when choosing your weapon options.
One thing to consider when arming your Vyper, perceived threat, if your Vyper is totting a Bright lance or Star cannon, your going to make the Vyper a high priority target. Weapons such as Shuriken cannons, Scatter lasers and EMLs donít carry the same threat.

Multiples, when taking a lone Vyper, I say multiple shot weapons are more viable, single shot weapons are best left when taking lots of Vypers. Allowing for misses, there are no second chances when youíre alone.

Is it worth taking Vypers in Units, my view in short is yes, it is viable, single shot weapons as mentioned before work best in multiples, allowing for misses.

That said, I donít take Vypers in squadrons, this is because it does not suit me battlefield roll, I use Vyper to add weight of shot and pressure in precise places on the battlefield and there second roll is to support my Falcons.

Taking them in squadrons make them clumsy and not tactically sound, as they cannot hide quite so easily, least we forget they are only AV 10, making them very susceptible to being shot down.

This brings me nicely onto my next point; upgrades- are they worth it?

Lets look at each one on its own merits-

Spirit stones- Good in theory, but looking at the odd of them being of use are so remote, it makes them unattainable and not worth the pts your spending on them.

Holofields- Just no... Donít even go there, if your tempted, get another Vyper, Holofields will not save your Vyper, end of.

Vectored Engines- Another upgrade that looks good on paper, just in reality its not worth it, much like Spirit stones, the odd on it saving your Vyper are not worth the pts sent on trying it.

Star Engines- Are quite handy for a Vyper allowing it to get into position for next turns assault on the enemies. But again, as all things with the Vyper it boils down to pts, Star Engines will make the Vyper very expensive and again, will become of a bigger threat, even if you went Dual Cannon- it defeats the objective of the game- cheapness, if you went expensive, you may as well take a Wave serpent.

Donít fall to temptation of short term success
I have read it time and time again, people moaning that the Vyper is useless and not worth taking, people expect the Vyper to shoot every turn, when in reality is doesnít (this is the case for people switching to Eldar, like myself). I found that the Vyper comes into its own, when you pick your opportunity to strike carefully, waiting, bidding your time. This is a risky strategy of course, leading to the people moaning and belittling the Vyper, ďit didnít shoot all gameĒ, but hiding provide protection, until the time is right to deal the killing blow, rather than taking a few pot shots, then dieing in a hail of return fire.

How does the Vyper compare against its rivals?
Space Marine Landspeeder, in particular the Tornado, is a top notch unit, the Tornado, boasts some impressive characteristics compared to the Vyper, not open topped, and above all the rather impressive Assault cannon + Heavy bolter combo. So the Marines can boast about how good there Tornado is compared to our Vyper, it is impressive after all. The only advantage the Vyper has over its fiercest rival, is that it costs less for us to mount strength 6 weaponry with a high rate of fire. But the Tornado is one of the best in the class on the battlefields of Warhammer 40k.

Another competitor to the Vyper is the Tau Piranha, this suffers the same opened topped weakness as the Vyper, totting detachable Gun drones and an impressive looking Fusion gun, its no push over, But we have the Piranha beat on average price, range, and rate of fire, so we can argue that Vyper is a better skimmer here.

All three vehicles have there Strengths and Weaknesses, its just a matter of how each units used, to determine which is better. But, I take pride in the fact that our Ďflimsyí Vyper can be a match for any of these very rather impressive looking units, and with skill and a pinch of luck, the Vyper can come out on top.

So overall
I defiantly consider the Vyper a viable unit, it has developed from the 3rd edition power house, to the 4th edition support role quite nicely. The Vyper in my mind, has a very niche roll in the Eldar army, the roll of support fire, no other unit in the codex comes close. It all about measuring your expectations of the Vyper, if you expect it to take armies apart, like the 3rd edition, I suspect you will be left feeling disappointed, but if you expect it to chip away at units, provide support and mop up units, then your in for a treat.

Thanks for reading those ramblings.

Cheers,

-Rob
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  #2 Old 02-18-08, 11:03 AM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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Wow, that's a great tactica. I'm starting an eldar army so I might use your advice if I get a vyper. The only argument I have with is your opinion about holofields. I just played against an eldar army with my marine army yesterday; I shot my opponent's vyper about 5 or 6 times with missile launchers and once with a twin-linked lascannon until it finally went down. Roughly three of them were glancing hits and 1 was a penetrating hit. Because of holo-fields it didn't go down until the last turn or so, drawing a decent amount of fire.
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  #3 Old 02-18-08, 01:28 PM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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Hmm, Holofields are good, but not for the Vyper, they have paper thin armour, and well, as they are open-topped it makes them even weaker, with a modification to the roll on to the damage chart.

This doesn't make good reading for the Vyper tbh, but along with the good weapons it can mount, its the points cost that makes the Vyper a viable choice. For the price of a Holofield upgrade on one Vyper, you could effectively get another Vyper, I would prefer another Vyper tbh.

And well, you must of been pretty ul not to get above a double 4 before destroying it, or stun it and move on, taking it next turn when you would only need a above a double 3..

But one round of shooting should pretty much render the Vyper useless.

I do love Holofields, just not on Vypers.

Thanks for the reply and the congrats.

-Rob
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  #4 Old 02-18-08, 03:47 PM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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i thought speeders where opentopped?
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  #5 Old 02-18-08, 04:09 PM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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Vypers are open topped, yes. But not all skimmers are open-topped.
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  #6 Old 02-18-08, 04:42 PM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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Mad King George, you are slightly wrong, Landspeeders are not opentopped, where as the Piranhas are along, with the the Vyper, I guess its the power armour, that counts as a roof? , not sure why, lol.

-Rob

Edited, sorry Mad King George.

Last edited by forgotten hero; 02-18-08 at 06:14 PM.
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  #7 Old 02-18-08, 04:49 PM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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They mention a few times that power armor seems to negate the effect of being open topped.

Also note that Hammerheads and Grav Tanks are skimmers as well, and certainly not open topped
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  #8 Old 02-18-08, 04:57 PM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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I edited that part out of my post, but yeah, I 2nd the fact that Grav Tanks and Hammerheads, and Devilfishes, etc are all close-topped and do not suffer the same problems and Piranhas and Vypers.

-Rob
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  #9 Old 02-18-08, 05:09 PM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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As I sit here deciding how to approach talking tactica Vyper, I look at my two Vypers, one Scatter laser + Shuriken cannon and the other Star Cannon and Shuriken cannon.
Since you only have 2 varients, I see that you are not overly experience with many Vyper Tactics in real Game scenerios; thus I will try to give you some of my experience with anywhere form 1-12 Vypers with various configurations.
Rolls of the Vyper
There rolls are totally different to each other, one, Star cannon toting Vyper, goes after high priority targets, Terminators for example. The other has a more varied roll, with its Scatter laser; it has the ability to take on light armoured targets such a Rhinos or Raiders, and/or Horde infantry. The roll of the Vyper is very important topic and this is where I shall begin.
Absolutely correct that they have different roles, but a Scatter/shuri-can vyper can basically do everything a Star/shuri-can Vyper can do; except take down MC's as fast, and even that is debateable.
Going back to the 3rd edition, the Vyper, was a very simple set up for most players, Star cannon and maybe Crystal Matrix Targeting (CMT), it was a beast, good range, good number of shots and filled a very important roll of anti marine.

But with the onset of the 4th edition, many Eldar players where left scratching there heads, no CMT and lots of nerfing to there precious Star cannon, reduced in shots too two, and the final preverbal nail in the coffin, a price hike, Its main battlefield roll had gone, so the Vyper felt a no choice to some people.

The old Star cannon Vyper costing 65pts and the new Vyper 70pts with a drop in performance and a price hike, its not looking good at all for the Vyper.

All these changes have resulted in, the once very popular Vyper, taken by almost every craftworld, now has been rendered almost dead. I and Iím sure many others, saw the Vyper as nothing more that a friendly list unit and not to be taken in a tournament environment and quickly sort out alternatives.
Here I disagree; Vypers are still very competitive as they are great for VP Denial and grabbing mission objectives as well as their basic Fire-support role. Although I do agree that you won't see them being used that often by less experienced players.
But, after playing a few games with these Vypers I mentioned above, I began to climb the learning curve, after initially shunning the Vyper for more shiny units. I began to think, sure the Vyper the 3rd edition is dead, but the base Vyper stayed the same and that is something I can build on.
Yup, you hit the nai on the head here... the Vyper is still as good as ever, it just hasa a slightly different overall role.
Rise of the Shuriken cannon
This is the weapon that can bring the Vyper back from the abyss, a dual Shuriken cannon Vyper will cost you a full 10pts less now, than it did back in the 3rd edition. This makes a huge difference, when calculating cost v performance issues. Its not the turret Shuriken cannon that makes the Vyper, itís the hull mounted cannon, it doubles the amount of shots the Vyper can dish out and allows some intriguing tactical opportunities, to a canny tactician who can exploit them.

Weapon Options-
Starting with the basic Vyper, Shuriken cannon + twin linked Shuriken catapults, this is nothing to write hope about at all, on the other hand. A Vyper equipped with Bright lance, Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones and Holofields, will be setting you back, almost the same points as a Wave serpent, so neither for me is a viable choice.

Dual Cannon Vyper- This is one of the more viable options for the Vyper, its cheap, keeps a very low threat priority, as its low range, and high AP, as its so fast, I can bring these extra 6 strength 6 shot where ever I want them on the battlefield, and for 60pts, itís a bargain.
Only problem is that it has to get too close to the enemy to make it truely effective.
Scatter Laser Vyper- Reduced fire power from the Dual Cannon Vyper, but the sacrifice is made for extra range and safety, makes a great escort vehicle.

Scatter Laser + Cannon Vyper- One of my favourite combos, makes an excellent horde hunter and in combination with the Vypers speed, it can make a great vehicle hunter, 70pts for 7 strength 6 shots at the side armour, most medium AV vehicles are going to take a hit sooner or later with this combo.
Also take out one SM per turn on average (slightly better than a Starcannon Vyper), and has uses on MC's as well.
Star Cannon + Cannon Vyper- This is another favourite of mine, with still a good number of shots, coming it at 5, it still packs a punch against horde and now marines, with its low AP Star Cannon, this Vyper now has a totally new roll in the Eldar army from the 3rd edition, this Vyper now picks at units not destroys them, the Star cannon has evolved and we have to adapt to use it.
Decent; but there is almost no point to paying the extra points when a Scatter/shuri-can vyper will do almost everything as well or better. Now don't get me wrong, these are still OK, as long as your not fielding too many of them where they start to draw too many points.
EML Vyper- This is a risky combo, most Eldar players will say this, single AP3 shots will on average hit only 50% of the time. But range is a key factor keeping the Vyper out of harms way while it take pot shots at enemy armour, but with its blast template and low AP, it now become a viable horde hunter as well. Its cheaper than the Star cannon and Bright lance platforms and itís a very viable platform in the 4th edition.
Don't forget that even if it does nothing but hide and grab a Mission Objective, it will pay for itself... This is actually one of the best configuration going, and if you happen to take 2 of them, then its basically 1 hit per turn with either a Pie-plate or a high Str weapon.
Bright lance Vyper- This for me, it not a viable option, as I said above, its just too expensive, Iím not saying donít take it, but I feel there are better options out there, like the EML for one. I also prefer to use the Vypers mobility to get a side/rear shot, than take a tank head on.
It is still a viable option for armies that don't have dedicated anti-tank units with range, if they can get 2 of them, and if they can use their range to just focus on tanks while avoiding return enemy fire.
key points to think about when choosing your weapon options.
One thing to consider when arming your Vyper, perceived threat, if your Vyper is totting a Bright lance or Star cannon, your going to make the Vyper a high priority target. Weapons such as Shuriken cannons, Scatter lasers and EMLs donít carry the same threat.
Anyone that brings a vyper to a game is bringing a Bullet Magnet, as smart opponents understand how soft they can be, and will take any opportunity to get them out of the way. You must use every trick in the book to keep them working through an entire game, mass numbers, other higher priority units, range sniping, etc, etc.
Multiples, when taking a lone Vyper, I say multiple shot weapons are more viable, single shot weapons are best left when taking lots of Vypers. Allowing for misses, there are no second chances when youíre alone.
I could not have said this better.
Is it worth taking Vypers in Units, my view in short is yes, it is viable, single shot weapons as mentioned before work best in multiples, allowing for misses.

That said, I donít take Vypers in squadrons, this is because it does not suit me battlefield roll, I use Vyper to add weight of shot and pressure in precise places on the battlefield and there second roll is to support my Falcons.
Why not, 3 vypers with Scatter.Shuri-can can put out 21 Str=6 shots per turn, thus with a bit of terrain, they can remain hidden after the enemy removes his casualties (its called Mobile Sniping - and its a whole article within my website).
Taking them in squadrons make them clumsy and not tactically sound, as they cannot hide quite so easily, least we forget they are only AV 10, making them very susceptible to being shot down.
Its all aobut timing and ratios, there are times for squadrons and times for singles....
This brings me nicely onto my next point; upgrades- are they worth it?

Lets look at each one on its own merits-

Spirit stones- Good in theory, but looking at the odd of them being of use are so remote, it makes them unattainable and not worth the pts your spending on them.

Holofields- Just no... Donít even go there, if your tempted, get another Vyper, Holofields will not save your Vyper, end of.

Vectored Engines- Another upgrade that looks good on paper, just in reality its not worth it, much like Spirit stones, the odd on it saving your Vyper are not worth the pts sent on trying it.

Star Engines- Are quite handy for a Vyper allowing it to get into position for next turns assault on the enemies. But again, as all things with the Vyper it boils down to pts, Star Engines will make the Vyper very expensive and again, will become of a bigger threat, even if you went Dual Cannon- it defeats the objective of the game- cheapness, if you went expensive, you may as well take a Wave serpent.
So far I have very seldom found the cost of a vehicle upgrade worth while on any Vyper.
Donít fall to temptation of short term success Agree wholeheartedly
I have read it time and time again, people moaning that the Vyper is useless and not worth taking, people expect the Vyper to shoot every turn, when in reality is doesnít (this is the case for people switching to Eldar, like myself). I found that the Vyper comes into its own, when you pick your opportunity to strike carefully, waiting, bidding your time. This is a risky strategy of course, leading to the people moaning and belittling the Vyper, ďit didnít shoot all gameĒ, but hiding provide protection, until the time is right to deal the killing blow, rather than taking a few pot shots, then dieing in a hail of return fire.
Well said, and now that a bunch of our enemies have read this, you will have to be even more careful.
How does the Vyper compare against its rivals?
Space Marine Landspeeder, in particular the Tornado, is a top notch unit, the Tornado, boasts some impressive characteristics compared to the Vyper, not open topped, and above all the rather impressive Assault cannon + Heavy bolter combo. So the Marines can boast about how good there Tornado is compared to our Vyper, it is impressive after all. The only advantage the Vyper has over its fiercest rival, is that it costs less for us to mount strength 6 weaponry with a high rate of fire. But the Tornado is one of the best in the class on the battlefields of Warhammer 40k.

Another competitor to the Vyper is the Tau Piranha, this suffers the same opened topped weakness as the Vyper, totting detachable Gun drones and an impressive looking Fusion gun, its no push over, But we have the Piranha beat on average price, range, and rate of fire, so we can argue that Vyper is a better skimmer here.

All three vehicles have there Strengths and Weaknesses, its just a matter of how each units used, to determine which is better. But, I take pride in the fact that our Ďflimsyí Vyper can be a match for any of these very rather impressive looking units, and with skill and a pinch of luck, the Vyper can come out on top.
To true, I often wreak havoc with my Vypers because they are under-estimated.
So overall
I defiantly consider the Vyper a viable unit, it has developed from the 3rd edition power house, to the 4th edition support role quite nicely. The Vyper in my mind, has a very niche roll in the Eldar army, the roll of support fire, no other unit in the codex comes close. It all about measuring your expectations of the Vyper, if you expect it to take armies apart, like the 3rd edition, I suspect you will be left feeling disappointed, but if you expect it to chip away at units, provide support and mop up units, then your in for a treat.
I run a certain very shooty Saim-Hann list that has 9 Vypers in it and believe me when I say that Vypers certainly can be game winning if used well. I run 3 EML varients to provide onlg ranged fire-support and the other 6 are all Scatter/Shuri-can varients which have multiple roles within the list. You must understand something though, this is a very refined concept list that either wins huge, or goes down in seconds, or spends eternity hiding.... as its all Jetbike to go with those 9 Vypers and its principle focus is casualty conservation and VP Denial.

Oh and don't feel that I am putting down you write up, as I actualy think its quite good. I just thought I would add a bit to it. Well done so far and if you like I can get you even more to add.
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  #10 Old 02-18-08, 05:27 PM Eldar Vyper Tactics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forgotten hero View Post
Mad King George, you are slightly wrong, not all skimmers are open topped. On that note, Landspeeders are not opentopped, where as the Piranha is along, with the the Vyper, I guess its the power armour, that counts as a roof? , not sure why, lol.

-Rob
i didn't say all skimmers just the land speeder it should be open topped
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