Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team

 
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Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team

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  #1 Old 02-09-10, 10:33 PM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team

To Stop A Transport With The Imperial Guard

Your Weapon of Choice?
Autocannon
- This gun has two shots and with typical guard BS 3, you should plan on only one hitting. With strength 7, you then have a 1/3 chance of penetrating AV 11 armour. While this might not seem reliable enough, if you take these in multiples then you can reliably pop enemy transports. Now I’m going to look at the units that can be used to carry autocannons and some Mathhammer.

Heavy Weapons Team with 3 Autocannons
- Costs 75 Points
This unit has 6 wounds, but only 3 models so it’s vulnerable to instant death. This unit will reliably take out enemy transports and can also turn its guns onto infantry once enemy transports are dealt with. If this unit is in cover, it will be hard for your opponent to shift without concentrating fire or launching an assault. Although there is the possibility for this unit to take orders, it has leadership 7 and there are no easy ways to boost this. A major advantage with this unit is that it can be placed on an objective and hold the objective; this cannot be relied upon however, a lucky multilaser shot can wipe out the entire team and jut about any unit can be these three models.

Mathhammer
Versus
- Armour 11 = 1 Penetrating Hit
- Armour 12 = 0.5 Penetrating Hits
- Armour 13 = 0.5 Glancing Hits
Versus
- Guard Equivalent = 2.5 Dead Guardsmen
- Marine Equivelent = 0.83 Dead Marines

Hydra Flak Tank

- Costs 75 Points
This tank costs the same amount as the heavy weapons team and it puts out a similar amount of fire. Although the heavy weapon team gets 2 more shots, since the hydra’s shots are twin linked, it will get the same 3 hits on average. In addition to its auto cannon, it also has a heavy bolter that is able to put out an addition 3 shots and helps against infantry or can be used against armour values of 11 or less.

Mathhammer
(For the Heavy Bolter Because the Autocannon Info is Above)
Versus
- Armour Value 10 = 0.5 Glancing Hits
- Armour Value 11 = 0.25 Glancing Hits
Versus
- Guard Equivalent = 1.25 Dead Guardsmen
- Marine Equivelant = 0.33 Dead Marines

Comparisons Between Hydra and Heavy Weapons
Mobility – Hydra wins this hands down, because it can move 6 inches and fire or it can move 12, blow smoke and then fire the next turn
Survivability vs. Small Arms – Hydra also wins this, it is next to immune to small arms fire
Survivability vs. Anti-tank Weapons – The heavy weapons team wins this because it cannot be destroyed by a lucky lascannon shot
Close Combat – Neither can really do anything useful in close combat, this might be a tie because while the heavy weapons could inflict a token wound, a hydra can just drive away from the combat at shoot at the unit that charged it.
Points Cost – A tie, but the Hydra does get an extra heavy bolter
Force Organization Chart – A Hydra loses this because it takes up a heavy support spot, and these are more often used for Leman Russ tanks or artillery.
Objective Taking – The heavy weapon squad wins this for obvious reasons, but remember, a hydra with no guns can still contest an objective.
Difficulty in Manufacture – Unless you are using forgeworld, it is important to remember that it can be difficult to make a Hydra Flak tank
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Last edited by Lopspoon; 02-10-10 at 02:26 AM. Reason: fixed some mistakes :)
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  #2 Old 02-10-10, 01:27 AM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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Should also be noted that autocannons are better than missile launcher against anything up to AV 12 (same number of penetrating hits on average, but twice as many glancing hits.)

Also, hydras and autocannon teams (w/o orders) get 3 hits on average, not 4. you also have a note in there about the heavy bolter working on targets with armor value 3 or less, but that's not really possible. I think you mean 10 or 11.

Personally I much prefer hydras to autocannon teams, but I also much prefer to use my heavy support for heavy support, not things that I could get from elsewhere in the codex. At low points levels I might take the hydra for support, but then again I might just take a vendetta instead to fulfill a similar role plus transporting a scoring unit.
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  #3 Old 02-10-10, 03:33 AM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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I take 2 Hydras in every list and AC HWT's in my Plasma-toting Vet Units, but then again I only do Mech IG so this suits that style. All-Infantry lists would favour HWT's I'd imagine. I also like the Hydras AC's because of the extra range they offer over the standard ones.

Plus the FW hydras are sweet sweet models.
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  #4 Old 02-10-10, 04:06 AM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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Hydra Autocannons are one of the bst way to take out Wave Serpents at range, sure S8 is better, but the ability to ignore the Flat-out cover save allows them to drop the Serpents after their first boost, which would leave their troops in vunerable posistions.
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  #5 Old 02-04-11, 09:35 PM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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And the Hydra has extra range - 72" oppossed to 48.
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  #6 Old 02-05-11, 06:28 AM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopspoon View Post
Survivability vs. Anti-tank Weapons – The heavy weapons team wins this because it cannot be destroyed by a lucky lascannon shot
Actually, it can. A heavy weapons team needs to only suffer a single casualty to be forced to take a Morale check. Since they have such poor Leadership it's quite easy to lose the Team entirely if they pack their bags and leave in a hurry. Cover helps mitigate this to a certain extent.

Quote:
Close Combat – Neither can really do anything useful in close combat, this might be a tie because while the heavy weapons could inflict a token wound, a hydra can just drive away from the combat at shoot at the unit that charged it.
I'd say the Hydra wins, because if the Hydra is going to get assaulted it can at least move a bit to reduce chances of being hit in close combat. A Heavy Weapon Team might inflict a lucky wound or two yes, but in 95% of cases it'll be soundly beaten and run down where a Hydra will in most cases end up fine or only slightly damaged.

Quote:
Force Organization Chart – A Hydra loses this because it takes up a heavy support spot, and these are more often used for Leman Russ tanks or artillery.
Personally I don't consider this to be a disadvantage. Leman Russ Tanks are too expensive in points to be taken in large numbers so losing a single Heavy Support slot because you take Hydras really isn't a big deal, at least in my mind. Granted sometimes you'd want a Manticore or something instead.

Quote:
Objective Taking – The heavy weapon squad wins this for obvious reasons, but remember, a hydra with no guns can still contest an objective.
Nobody is going to let a Heavy Weapon Squad sit on an objective long enough to claim it. Remember it only takes a tiny bit of effort to force a Heavy Weapon Squad to break, or to just erase it completely. Orders can make this more difficult to do by giving the team +2 to their cover save, but template weapons and close combat aren't bothered by cover so it doesn't much matter. Also, good Imperial Guard armies tend to have more than enough scoring units, so having one less because the army has Hydras isn't a significant loss.

Quote:
Difficulty in Manufacture – Unless you are using forgeworld, it is important to remember that it can be difficult to make a Hydra Flak tank
Or a Chimera with the Aegis Defense Line quad autocannon pieces which is probably cheaper than a Forge World Hydra.
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  #7 Old 02-08-11, 09:00 PM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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It all comes down to if you make a full mech army (most common) or a inf based army that makes use of the order system. The Hydra is always a solid choice, as in its self sufficient and rarely out of place. The Heavy Weapon Teams require more tinkering and planning shine but can be worth it in specific setups.

A inf based army should have a Commissar Lord in it somewhere since LD10 is damn good. Even more so since all units within 6 get it. That also means HWTs which means that they actually might pass LD tests. The LDboost also applies to understanding orders and that is the key feature here though. HWTs that either force you to reroll Cover or get Twinlinked guns is amongst the best bang for the bucks you get. Its just the matter of making them understand the order and thats what the CL does.
Just learn to "go to the ground" if needed and "get back into the fight" the next turn if things look dire
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  #8 Old 02-09-11, 05:45 PM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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If you're using Mathhammer to account for shooting at vehicles, you can't use averages, since only the first destroyed result matters. Averages take into account the possibility of multiple hits. This works for infantry when you assume the number of shots is less than or equal to the number of wounds. Also, don't forget to work on a per-shot basis instead of a per-weapon one. An autocannon doesn't hit once, it has a 25% chance to hit twice, a 50% chance to hit once, and a 25% chance to hit zero. This adds up more and more the more guns there are.

To account for shooting at vehicles, you need to calculate the inverse of your odds of failing entirely. The chance of a BS 3 AutoCannon shot destroying AV 12 = 3/6 * 1/6 * 2/6 = 0.03 (rounded). That's a 97% chance to fail per shot. A HWS has 6 shots, which calculates to a (0.97)^6 chance of failing all of them. This translate to 0.1555. . . chance of destroying the target with a volley.

Hydra: 3/4 * 1/6 * 2/6 = 0.04 (rounded) Four shots, chance to fail = (0.96)^4 leads to 0.1565. . . .

Turns out the Hydra is ahead of a HWS by about 0.1%, which will only grow over more shots.

Ohter concerns about which to take are based around how much armor you already have, and if you use your Heavy choices. I run mech hybrid, and don't use heavy slots except for my Hydras. Also, if I ran HWS instead of Hydras, I wouldn't have enough armor on the field to provide AV saturation. I want the two extra AV 12 hull there to make the opponent choose between my Chimeras, Vendettas, and Hydras. If I were an all infantry army, then HWS would take the cake easily, because a Hydra would be the only AV on the table, making it the first and only target for the big guns that everybody brings these days.
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  #9 Old 02-09-11, 09:17 PM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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I have quite a selection of hw teams and run a list that is heavy with them. Effective ordering of hw teams can be made to work with Kell and his 'listen up maggots' rule. Squads test for orders using the LD of kell's commander. Makes the hw teams far more relliable.
On the other hand the hw teams fragility is well documented.
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  #10 Old 03-02-11, 10:49 PM Hydra or Heavy Weapon Team
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I am still building my first IG army, but I have no Hydra's (yet), but I upgraded each Veteran squad with a lascannon. Against light to unarmored targets, the lasguns do well from Vets, and against tough targets, the lascannons come into their own. In CC I seem to always get my butt kicked, so I try to eliminate the other side at range. Infantry supported by armor, and armor supported by infantry. Combine the lascannons and Vanquishers on the tanks with the lascannons in the veteran squads, and in theory it should work. Have not played this mix yet, I am still painting the last couple HWTs.

Because I am still new to this, I am open for suggestions and tactics.
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