I almost refuse to play against armies with Obliterator SPAM. (Edited for clarity) They are to me the incarnation of beardy cheese beardyness, and to think some people would use something that broken tells me they are win-at-all-cost people, because I seriously would be so guilt-stricken if fielding such an army I would ask my opponent if I could nerf them before playing.
Yet it has been brought up that the Chaos Codex is full of shit, and apparently this one thing is their only glimmer of hope and I should just shut up but NO I will not let you beat me down!
Reasons as to why is because 40K is a lot like a game of rock-paper-scissors. In other words what you consider to be an unbeatable unit with the army and units you use will easily be killed by another unit in either a different army or even a different unit within your own codex.
Just find what works. Oblits can be ID'd by any S8 weapon. If you load up on melta and can't close range thena that is your fault and problem.
How does the fact that 'there are things to counter X' justify that X is about 100 points too cheap for what it does?
A SINGLE Obliterator is about as good as ONE Broadside, a Broadside costs TWICE as much and Obliterators can DEEP STRIKE and be fielded in 5 MAN DERP STRIKING UNITS.
I almost refuse to play against armies with Obliterators. They are to me the incarnation of beardy cheese beardyness, and to think some people would use something that broken tells me they are win-at-all-cost people, because I seriously would be so guilt-stricken if fielding such an army I would ask my opponent if I could nerf them before playing.
You refuse to play against armies that include Obliterators?
A unit that can be torrented AND instant killed.
They aren't exactly cheap at 75pts a pop, unlike say Hive Guard, which are 50pts each, Toughness 6, 2 wounds, BS 4, have a strength 8 Assault 2 gun that can fire INDIRECTLY!!!
Or how about the Toughness 6, WOUND 6, 3+ save toting MC that can spawn scoring units each turn, oh and count as scoring himself .... Mr Tervigon?
Or how about most of the Blood Angels stuff, cheaper devastators, fast vehicles, Baal Predators, some psychic powers, etc?
So basically, you won't fight against one of the weakest codices in terms of overall competitiveness if they take probably the one unit in the entire codex that is good in any given situation.
Now, everyone who knows me here at Heresy, knows that I'm a pure fluff player and hate any form of 'competitive' gaming, but your comment is just completely stupid.
So my question for you is, are you being serious or are you just trying to stir up stuff online?
Obliterators are max 3 per unit. Also, there's no way you can claim that a lascannon is as good as a tl-railgun...
If they're closing to use meltas they're vulnerable to cc, enemy melts, etc..
Know your own strengths and your enemies weaknesses and you'll go a lot farther than refusing to play against anything you don't know how to beat!
I personally think that since it is not possible to balance two codexs together, that the only fair way is to fight yourself in ever fight. Even then, I find myself yelling cheese every time my Cattachans fight my Cadians...
Okay, so obviously I am kidding. I just try to remember that every unit I see that seems unbalanced, there is likely a hindrance to that unit or the army as a whole that the player is having to accommodate. For example, one army might be capable of fielding tons of amazing CC units, but the shooting style cost more or may have range issues or whatever. It helps me enjoy the game.
That all being said, the cheesiest unit (since you did ask) is the... hmm, I am gonna think on this an edit in my choice later. EDIT: Chose Kroot... lol
I highly doubt that he is trying to stir up the forum. That being said, I agree that he is being overly whiny about one unit. Basically, it is a unit that is well equipped to handle the Tau and he hasn't figured out how to handle them. Last time I fought Obliterators, I dropped a Str 10 AP 2 large template on them, then had plasma cannons and lascannons clean up any survivors (fortunately, there weren't any and I continued on).
Now, that being said, I have had several times where an opponent brought something that I had no clue as to how to handle it. Eventually, I worked it out every time. That isn't cheese though. That is your opponent being smart enough to bring a unit that will disrupt/dismantle his opponent. Also, you wouldn't bring them against every army. For example, what would be the point of bringing Obliterators against Orks... Unless they knew that Ork player was planning on bringing Stompas and Battle Wagons lol.
All that being said (again!), we have gone off topic a bit... He was making another thread for people to vent about which units they personally find cheesy and why. We don't need to be slamming his selection and what have you. I will select the Kroot.
How self righteous people get over something like this is pure /boggle. If you're really Ghandi incarnated and don't get even a slight twinge of reduced fighting spirit against as much as one unit in a game of thousands... Grats, you're a saint, a model opponent, a true sporting gentleman... More importantly, you should have left this thread alone as it is clearly not for you.
Well, see, that's not what you posted about. You were asking for people to vent about "imbalanced" and "cheesy" units that people "almost refuse" (whatever that means) to play against, and combined it with a rant where you lambasted people who run the (arguably) only good chaos heavy support choice as being "beardy" and "waac"..
Your attitude annoys a lot of people because it's common among bad players who whine when their opponents use tactics they don't know how to beat instead of learning how to play. This type of player is known as a "scrub". I don't know whether you're a scrub, but you have a lot of the same complaints that they do.
And you're wondering why you raised hackles?
You'd probably have gotten a better reception if you asked about what enemy units people find annoying or frustrating, rather than what they "almost refuse to play against".
On topic, I nominate SM librarians as the unit that annoys me most to play against. Stupid null zone psychic hood superflamer BS.
I would expect allied Inquisitors/Mystics to go away in the new GK (or Whatever) codex. I like the concept of Inquisition allies, but being able to bring such powerful anti-deepstrike capability into Marine and IG lists is unbalancing. I don't have a problem with them within their own Codex though.
As a Nid player, I'm jealous of the super cheap transports and wickedly powerful ICs with invulnerable saves that Marines get. I wouldn't really call individual units cheesy though. Nids get a lot of stuff that they don't get, like T6 W6 MCs that can shrug off melta hits.
Certain builds look cheesy to certain armies, but I have yet to see the ultimate all-comers list. Closest is probably the infamous "Leafblower", but make it strict 40K instead of the Imperial Armor units and it becomes more pedestrian. That's also a lot of the motivation for wanting to do away with allied Mystics, as countering deepstrike takes away a lot of the weaknesses of the IG codex.
Obliterators seem fine to me. They are scary and effective, but nothing to take offence at.
The OP's point still stands though, there certainly are some units (or combinations of units) that are just unsporting. F'rex I could field three Exorcists, but I don't because I'm a gentleman. I don't know what it was like in 3e but today the Exorcist is simply too cheap for what it can do.
Most things in the Space Wolf codex seem under-priced - they are certainly cheaper than vanilla Marines for no real downside (Long Fangs units are smaller than Devestator units, so have fewer ablative wounds, but it's hardly a sufficient handicap to justify the price) and then there's the Vendetta...
I grant my army doesn't have a 5e Codex, but if the Vendetta were in my codex for 200 points, I'd still field it and call it a bargain - I suspect I'm not alone.
I think most Guard players would agree that it's too good for its points.
Wanna talk about cheese, talk about 3rd edition eldar that cold field 30 wraithguard and 3 wraithlords at 1500 or jet bikes that you could not shoot but shot the hell out of you.
And it is impossible to judge one dex from another and here is why:
The Nids dex and CSM dex may have identical statlines, but in the nid dex it is 25 points more. OMFGHAX why? Because the character with that statline may not fit the overall flavor of the army so there is a penalty accessed. Oblits are not broke IMHO, but they maybe in yours. That is your right to say that.
To the people who wanna act like an inflamed hemeroid, the moment he started to "stir up shit" was the exact moment folks decided to break this down to name calling. In the wise words of Jezlad, chill the fuck out.
But then again why the fuck do you not hide in cover. There is no unbeatable unit out there. There are some which seem OP or what-have you but they all have severe weaknesses that you must be intelligent enough to exploit. For example oblits crap themselves when facing lascannons or any other weapon S8 and above.
Heck my current army packs in 5 lascannons (3 of which are twin linked) and 8 missile launchers in 1500 points. They would laugh at obliterators.
Cheesy = Wraithlord "what do you mean I used to have armor values and caused psykers heads to explode when I died?" And that is my home dex and yes I play them, normally 2 in my Iyanden force. Nothing says fun like putting down 40 guard and smilling at your opponent. But TBH it sucks in capture objective missions where hoard armies have better luck but in VP I will normally win just because my stuff is a PITA to kill.
Yes there is reason Iyanden are yellow, its the color of cheese!
Tau has the seeker missile and the rail gun. The prior is something you don't use in throngs as it's inefficient, and the latter should be making holes in tanks.
Space marines have Vindicators, and I won't stoop to spamming Vindicators to combat Obliterator spam aka. be as 'bad' as them
Tyranids have... Zoanthropes? A unit not widely used by functioning individuals (I think, a bit rusty on the new 'dex)
But yeah, I'll edit the OP.
EDIT: Anyway, Chaos has the Demon Prince and Zerkers, none of which are bad or even average. They're rather good IMO.
For me, there is no unit my opponent can field that would make me even consider refusing to play. I've been playing a long time, if theres something I can't deal with then maybe its time I sit the fuck down and figure out some ways to improve rather than whinge and complain. Why waste my time when there are more productive things to be done?
Now there are units I do not like fighting, and thats a given. Some units are harder to kill than others, some units screw up your plans. Its easier to fight a list without those pain in the ass units, but I am not going to be the prick who refuses to play, or begrudgingly plays (because if I'm doing this than I am intentionally making myself miserable and now I have no one to blame but myself; and why the fuck would I want to make myself miserable anyway?)
Gonna have to edit in my top three picks on units I do not like fighting.
Well, grats on the most level headed post here. And I'm no spring chicken, I started this game 17 years ago at the age of 7. But Obliterators are the first and only unit to truly set my blood in a boil. To me, they are fundamentally broken. I don't get why noone sees that, but hey, that's just how these things work.
I for one don't get why so many hate pickles. Pickles are great. I do however hate Coca Cola and lots of people love that stuff.
Perception.
I do not however believe for a second everyone is the saint they make themselves out to be. I've always taken pride in sportsmanship, but being honest on a forum shouldn't be cause for riot. I don't get it. It's not like I sit down and grump for the duration of a match against chaos obliterator spam, I make sure both parties have a good time playing, I just feel the need to vent it, having to 'put up' with what to me is extremely bad unit design.
Wow. Just wow. You guys are great. Such a fantastic community. Whatever. Could a mod lock this topic or something and I'll fuck off from this place now. I won't try and say fuck as much as Winterous here, who's dog I apparently ate for breakfast this morning since he's obviously out to get me with FUCKING WORDS IN MY FACE.
Now unless my eyes deceive me, you have fuck three times to Winterous's one. Bit of a math and logic fail in that regard; unless you actually meant you wanted to say it more times than Winterous in which case you did not fail.
Got to say no unit is really a game breaker, they only become so when you spam enough of one type of unit till its damn hard for a balanced list to deal with them. For instance making the army so fast that gun line only get 1 shot at it, or spamming su much armor that the enemy can only reliably kill 1-2 units of yours a turn.
Obliterators really arent that bad. SHoot them with ap2 S8 or higher weaponry. Simple. Lash chaos in general is overrated and average. I cant remember the last time I ever lost to it.
Jeese guys, lighten up. He just asked what kind of armies you don't like playing against. Personally, I don't like Lash lists or Imperial Guard lists with lots of allied Daemonhunters.
I hate Lash because many armies have no way to counter it, and it encourages players to put everything in a vehicle, which makes the game less interesting, in my opinion.
I don't like allied Daemonhunters because it makes one of the most powerful and versatile armies in the game (possibly THE most powerful) even more versatile. I wouldn't mind so much if they didn't always take the same things: a terminator HQ w/retinue, inquisitors loaded up with mystics, and Emperor's tarot. I see it so often in IG lists, I'm sick of playing against them.
Space Wolves aren't cheesy as much as they are 'undercosted' or in other words, 'made for spamming'. It's a shame, as it doesn't really match the fluff of the army.
The only unit/power they have that's really cheesy is 'jaws of the world wolf', especially when facing Tyranids or Orks (to snipe powerklaws/bosspoles), but mainly only because the power can be used from within a vehicle. It wouldn't be as imbalanced if the rune priest had to leave the vehicle to use it.
Yeah, JOTWW hits Nids particularly hard but it's tough to complain too much about since it's near useless against fast armies.
I (and a lot of Nid players) are peeved about the psyker transport rules though and rightly so I think. Why should psychic hoods and powers be able to work out of transports, but our powers not be able to go in? (Shadow of the Warp, Spirit Leach, etc). I'd like to see that fixed in 6th ed. I don't even care if it's all or nothing either way, just make it consistent.
@MetalHandkerchief, you'll have better luck just ignoring the trolls.
I take it you play a lot of CSM? My playgroup has a lot of Mech and it annoys me to no end. Be it Mechdar or Razorspam, my DE just heave a sigh every time they hit the field. I then proceed to break my enemy's cans open and eat their hearts.
One of the reasons I love this game so much is this so called "cheese". I am in the same camp as DeathKlokk. It is all about being prepared. So much this game has to do with HOW you play, not WHAT you play that it defies the idea of cheese.
That said, I still hate Lash Whips with a deep and burning passion. Freakin' Hive Tyrant and Guard....
I hate playing ML spam armies (because they ruin both of my armies day), and more or less any version of Space Wolves (which are so stupidly undercosted it's just not funny).
Needless to say I hate playing LF-spam SW the most! :laugh: However I will never refuse to play anyone, I'll just accept that they're the one thing I don't have an amazingly efficient answer to and try to force a draw as best I can. It does, however, make me a better player, as I am forced to think a lot more about what units I can and cannot afford to commit in the face of that firepower.
Edit: Oh, and Manticores. Fucking Manticores. Plural.
Lol I love how the OP asked for this thread to be locked 'because of F*CKING WORDS IN HIS FACE' (damn you Oxford dictionary, damn you to hell!!!), yet still people are trying to carry on as if nothing happened.
RANT RANT RANT RANT
FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME
WAR WAR WAR WAR
"I don't like unit X because ...."
KILL KILL KILL KILL
DIE DIE DIE DIE
It's like there has been a horrible crime, but everyone is too polite to comment on what has happened, so they awkwardly carry on the conversation anyway.
I reject your simile and substitute my own! :laugh:
It's more like some people sitting in a cafe having a chat while extremely loud road works are going on outside. The conversation is interesting enough... the bits you can hear over the sound of jackhammers, anyway.
And while we're on the subject, I think it is interesting to note that what makes a unit really annoying is numbers. One squad of LF is annoying, but three squads and it is a headache.
Wow sounds like someone just got his ass beat by a oblit spam player. Dude quit crying Oblits arent that awesome that you cant possibly figure a way to kill them. I as a chaos player who has ran an oblit spam list know that its is completly possible to defeat such list. Whine a little longer and then when you feel like growing up sit down and design a list to kill a oblit spam player. My advice is take S8 weapons and spam shot them. Oblits have a 5+ save or they get instant killed.
But to answer your post I really dont think there is that many cheesy units in the game. When i first started playing i was a weak strategist and thought other armies had cheesy stuff, but the truth is i just sucked. When you get more playing experience you begin to find ways to work around units.
My most hated unit to face is an Eldar seer consol on bikes with a far seer with fortune. Thats a mouth full of prison rape in one unit. But all you have to do is send something into the unit like a daemon prince with MoS and attack the far seer. sure its a suicide mission, but after its dead you can whipe the squad out no problem.
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