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Wargame chat: warhammer VS warmachine

Warmachine, Hordes & Other Privateer Press Discussion

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Reply With Quote maddermax is offline
  #11 Old 04-15-12, 04:44 PM Wargame chat: warhammer VS warmachine
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I'll have to wait till tomorrow to give a full answer, but I have to chime in that I haven't seen any real power creep in either wrath or domination - pretty much all the new stuff was middle of the road. The only power creep, as it were, was the power of having different options and more choices for list building, but no item was significantly better than older choices, and most were simply middle of the pack (and rightly so).

For my own faction (menoth), we got a middle of the pack caster, good jack in the sanctifier (but on par with the Templar, and not better than the reckoner), a mercenary attachment that won't see much use just because the faction doesn't often need mercenary units (but it's there if you want it) and the vessel battle engine, which is good, but you're either giving up a battle group jack (vessel doesn't vet battle group spells) or a full unit, which is a very hard choice in 35 point games where you want a meat shield. Nothing is an auto include, nothing is better, it's just the extra choices.
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Reply With Quote maddermax is offline
  #12 Old 04-16-12, 03:24 AM Wargame chat: warhammer VS warmachine
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Ok, it's the next day, and I've had a chance to read through all the thread, and my god, that was horrible. Well, lets see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JokerGod View Post
.
Also with PP putting out 2 books a year, there is a lot of power creep forcing you to buy new models at an increased rate so you are paying a lot more to stay competitive in PP then you are in GW.

~Joker
With WFB, I play Bretonnians. We haven't had a new army book in nearly 10 years - 10 years! Not only that, but despite not having an army book in that much time, because of the change of editions, my army, as I had collected it in 5th and 7th, was basically screwed over, and in order to stay even marginally competitive, I would have had to invest $400 for new infantry - because large blocks of infantry were essentially required for competitiveness in the new edition, and even then I'd be fighting to be average, as my army was 2 editions out of date. At least with PP, you always have a smattering of fresh models every year, and it's much nicer to have a selection of stuff, rather than buying the same units over and over again, because you need bigger and bigger units to be competitive.

Meanwhile, it's certainly not too much when they release 3 single models (caster, solo, mercenary UA), a multi-part jack kit (magnetisable, so more options for less money), and a battle engine in a year. The only thing that is expensive there is the battle engine, and that's really not necessary at all. I could see if you were trying to collect several different factions or something it would be a problem to keep up with everything, but for those with 1 or 2 factions, it's a nice pace, and you really really don't need everything that's released.

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PP is as greedy as they come. They are taking there new jump in popularity to shove product down people throat at a increased rate. (MKI got 1 book per year, not 2) leaving some factions to wait until the next book comes out to receive things in the previous book.
Isn't that a complete contradiction? They're "Shoving product down people's throats" by... releasing them gradually over a year? PP tends to blend the tail end of previous book into the forward edge of the new book, which isn't a bad policy, but it looks like nearly everything is on track to be released from the old book by the time the new book comes out.

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They have also now released 2 "Huge" based models, the first had little effect for SOME armys, but I can easily see the new models being almost an auto-include for WM players.
The rules for the new models haven't even been previewed yet, how can you KNOW they're going to be "almost an auto-include"?? They're rumoured to be around 20 points, which would price them as much as 3 heavy Jacks or units, and they're a single model which can be clobbered pretty easily, even with the hit-boxes of 2 jacks. Seriously, most people are worried that they'll end up as expensive occasional use pieces (kind of like Forge-world stuff, which is what I would compare them to).

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Now, until you can come up with something that is not based on your fanboy lies I am don with you.
~Joker
If you're trying to convince someone of your point of view, it's usually not a good idea to go around insulting them, which you seem to keep doing. Keep it civil. Bring better arguments, less insults.

Last edited by maddermax; 04-16-12 at 03:31 AM.
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Reply With Quote Pandawithissues... is offline
  #13 Old 04-16-12, 09:25 AM Wargame chat: warhammer VS warmachine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JokerGod View Post
Clearly you need to take a step back and breath a bit, then look at what your saying and look at the facts.
I'm happy to look at the facts, except I'm the only one out of the two of us providing any.

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Originally Posted by JokerGod View Post

In the MKI-MKII switch PP DOUBLED the model out put and book releases. They also had power creep from one book to the next. (Not in a one faction over the next like GW has, but in new models being stronger then the old ones) They have also now released 2 "Huge" based models, the first had little effect for SOME armys, but I can easily see the new models being almost an auto-include for WM players.
There's normally at least 2 GW army re-releases a year isn't there?
Try and provide some evidence, any evidence at all that the Battle Engines are 'auto-includes'. You can't, because pretty much everyone believes them to have situational effectiveness in SOME LISTS, to in some cases, rather poor (Wraith Engine, Siege Adamantarax). The second set of huge based models haven't even had their rules released yet. No one knows how their going to affect the game yet.

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I am not saying PP is a bad company, I am saying they are exactly like GW, people need to stop acting like there not and face the facts.
I've articulated plenty of reasons why PP are different to GW. You continue to provide no facts at all.

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Originally Posted by JokerGod View Post
Your troll lists, are a joke, as even the people who love PP will tell you the lists you find on there forum are not accurate of the tournament setting or even good lists. As I go to a lot of major tournaments for PP games I can tell you first hand you will see a lot of trolls running Kreils.
Perhaps those lists aren't fantastically representative of the tourney scene. You haven't provided any evidence. The tournament scene isn't the be all and end all of wargaming. People are obviously enjoying fielding lists without Kriel Warriors. I'm sure you do see troll lists with Kriel Warriors. I'm sure you also see plenty of troll lists without.

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Originally Posted by JokerGod View Post
Now, until you can come up with something that is not based on your fanboy lies I am don with you.



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Originally Posted by JokerGod View Post


As I mentioned before there power creep is not as blatant as GWs but it is there, you wont see it advertised as most of the community only gos to the PP forums where the Mods are very good at removing anything that remotely looks like it is bad for PP.

~Joker
At least PP have the guts to interact with the community. It's not like GW bother to even run a forum...

Quite frankly, we're derailing this thread.

I enjoyed the video, and thought it was reasonably articulate. From this point we should really focus on the differences between the game systems, rather than marketing and company policy side of things.

One of the things I particularly enjoy about Warmachine is the required planning and forethought that needs to go into each turn.

Activating each model individually and completing its full turn means you need to have a comprehensive strategy for what you want to do for each piece each turn. It also allows you to modify your strategy on the fly if things don't go how you planned.

For example, you need to remove a particular model of your opponent. Using the warmachine method allows you to activate a model to try and deal with this threat. If the model you activate fails, then you can try again with a different one, then move a third model through the gap you've created etc. With warhammer, you'd have moved all your models at once, then shot with everything etc - There's no room for this kind of subtlety in play. The warmachine system has some strong hints of Blood Bowl, in terms of making difficult decisions about what order you activate stuff, and what moves you make first. - It's no surprise that I really enjoy warmachine when I love blood bowl to bits.

The other critical planning point is that of focus and fury. With focus for warmachine, you need to have a plan for what you want to do with a limited pool of focus every turn, and prioritise moves which are more critical. With fury, you don't have anywhere as much of a limit in terms of finite resources, but you need to plan in a different way, because you need to position (and protect) your warlock in a place where they can force all the beasts that require it, as they must be within the control area to be forced, whilst warjacks can spend focus outside the control area.
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  #14 Old 04-16-12, 02:04 PM Wargame chat: warhammer VS warmachine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandawithissues... View Post

I enjoyed the video, and thought it was reasonably articulate. From this point we should really focus on the differences between the game systems, rather than marketing and company policy side of things.

One of the things I particularly enjoy about Warmachine is the required planning and forethought that needs to go into each turn.

Activating each model individually and completing its full turn means you need to have a comprehensive strategy for what you want to do for each piece each turn. It also allows you to modify your strategy on the fly if things don't go how you planned.

For example, you need to remove a particular model of your opponent. Using the warmachine method allows you to activate a model to try and deal with this threat. If the model you activate fails, then you can try again with a different one, then move a third model through the gap you've created etc. With warhammer, you'd have moved all your models at once, then shot with everything etc - There's no room for this kind of subtlety in play. The warmachine system has some strong hints of Blood Bowl, in terms of making difficult decisions about what order you activate stuff, and what moves you make first. - It's no surprise that I really enjoy warmachine when I love blood bowl to bits.

The other critical planning point is that of focus and fury. With focus for warmachine, you need to have a plan for what you want to do with a limited pool of focus every turn, and prioritise moves which are more critical. With fury, you don't have anywhere as much of a limit in terms of finite resources, but you need to plan in a different way, because you need to position (and protect) your warlock in a place where they can force all the beasts that require it, as they must be within the control area to be forced, whilst warjacks can spend focus outside the control area.
It is one of the things I like best about it as well. It is a game where the decisions you make are usually much more important than the list you bring. I play an army with only the models I like and I still do very well.

I am not sure comparing warhammer and warmachine is very fair though. It is in a lot of ways like comparing monopoly and chess. They both take place on a board with pieces, but that is where the similarity ends.
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