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1500pts Throne Of Skulls - Emperor's Children List A Or B?!

3K views 40 replies 11 participants last post by  LordStubert 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey folks,

An interesting one for you all here. I need help picking one of the two below lists for the January Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World. Before I begin however, I would like to point out that I am a competitive player, but not at the sake of theme. Please don't suggest changes such as Princes/Plague/Oblits. If I wanted that I wouldn't have done an army and called them 'Emperor's Children' - I would have done an army and called it 'Copy and Paste Chaos List number 4523...'

Anyway, you get the idea. I don't want to change the units below but am up for any constructive suggestions within my theme. Basically, it has become apparent to me that it may not be necessary to have more then 2 scoring units in 1500pts. Please feel free to refute this - but in my experience, at least 2 of my noise marine units survive when I use 3. Also you don't need scoring units if you table your opponent :grin:

So here goes:

List A

Sorc
MoS
Lash
Familiar
Warptime
Melta Bombs 160pts

Sorc
MoS
Lash
Melta Bombs 130pts

x5 Noise Marines (with Sorc)
x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
x1 Rhino
x1 Havoc Launcher 210pts

x5 Noise Marines (with Sorc)
x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
x1 Rhino
x1 Havoc Launcher 210pts

x6 Noise Marines
x1 Champ upgrade
x1 Doom Siren
x1 Power Fist
x1 Melta Bombs
x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
x1 Rhino
x1 Havoc Launcher 290pts

x1 Predator
x1 Las Sponsons
x1 Twin Las 165pts

x1 Predator
x1 Las Sponsons
x1 Twin Las 165pts

x1 Predator
x1 Las Sponsons
x1 Twin Las 165pts

1495pts

OR

List B

Sorc
MoS
Lash 125pts

Sorc
MoS
Lash 125pts

x5 Noise Marines (with Sorc)
x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
x1 Rhino
x1 Havoc Launcher 210pts

x5 Noise Marines (with Sorc)
x4 Sonic Blasters
x1 Blast Master
x1 Rhino
x1 Havoc Launcher 210pts

x1 Dread
x1 Heavy Flamer
x1 Missile Launcher (Blastmaster proxy and safe for me)

x1 Dread
x1 Heavy Flamer
x1 Missile Launcher (Blastmaster proxy and safe for me)

x1 Dread
x1 Heavy Flamer
x1 Missile Launcher (Blastmaster proxy and safe for me)

x1 Predator
x1 Las Sponsons
x1 Twin Las 165pts

x1 Predator
x1 Las Sponsons
x1 Twin Las 165pts

x1 Predator
x1 Las Sponsons
x1 Twin Las 165pts

1490pts

So that's it - what do you all think? Basically, list B drops one scoring unit and a Rhino and gets 3 Dreads with heavy flamers and missile launchers. Nasty. But is 2 scoring units enough?

ps

Please don't bring up the dreads being terrible units either. They're not. I use them regularly and they ALWAYS cause serious damage. Their rage is usually a benefit as I storm them toward the enemy anyway.

Cheers for looking!
 
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#2 ·
Hi mate,

Like your post and good luck with your ToS. I went to one last year and had a great time.

As far as the list go I would recommend the first one. You sound like you know what your doing and using the parking lott tactic I think you could do well.

I love my twin lash list but the problem as you prob know is getting your opponent out of their transport... and everything is mecked up these days!

I think ur second list is looking to counter this problem. I think it is a good crack at it but not as gd as a twin lash / oblit spam list. Might be worth a play test tho.

If I was to use the 2nd list tho I would run the dreads with plasma cannons. Very nasty when you last two squads on to one and drop a load of AP3 templates on them.

Hope this helps a bit.
 
#3 ·
Firstly, liking your theme and since you know your weaknesses I'm sure you can do well.

I like the lists a lot however I am torn between the two.

If I was going to the Tournement and trying my best to place I would go for List A purely due to the 3 scoring units (I play 3 scoring at 1.5k) however I am really really tempted by list B purely by the pure amount of Dakka and Boom you can throw down.

Screw it take list B and blow sh*t up!

Good luck in yout ToS!
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the comments folks - it really is a tough one!

@ Allisalie - your point about the mech and twin lash is spot on. It's exactly why the 3 dreads with another 3 S8 shots is so useful. Plus the heavy flamers work wonders on hordes :) As much as the Plasma synergies with lash so well - it doesn't have the transport cracking power I need. Plus in an all comers I can use frag with lash, to smack hordes.

I know what you mean about 3 scoring units and you're right about oblit spam being better at gun lining then list B... However I often come close to tabling opponents and the noise units always seem to survive - people like dropping a lot of fire power against my preds - it's almost as if 9 lascannons scare them or something.

@Ratvan - haha, you're in line with my thinking - what's more fun then blowing your opponent off the table? Interesting however that you agree with Allsalie and think that 3 scoring would place me higher... I think I need to play test it!
 
#5 · (Edited)
List 2 is nasty but any good player is going to be able to spank you and there will be plenty gd players at the ToS. The prob is your troops as u know, they will go after them and with squad sizes of only 6 you may find your self taking LD tests very quickly... And you don't want to be failing any of them. This list will find it hard to take and holding objectives, any troops will become a prime target out of cover.

"it's almost as if 9 lascannons scare them or something" - LoL !

List a is more competitive and in my view the one you should be taking to a ToS.
 
#6 ·
You make a safe and sound point mate. Can't disagree with your reasoning - my units aren't particularly well protected, although they are fearless, so no LD will be required... The only reason I think list B could work is because of your above reasoning. If people want to go all out an kill my scoring units, that means they won't have enough firepower to deal with the 3 dreads and preds running around - hopefully punishing them off the table by turn 5...? I don't know - you're both probably right - 3 scoring is safer - but the glory to be had with list B is tempting!
 
#7 ·
Just as an update for anyone who's interested - I have now play tested List B over A in a few games against Eldar and Grey Knights. Both opponents were fielding very competitive lists and we deliberately played Objective games to test me.

Indeed, the first time I used them - I got utterly owned :p

HOWEVER,

With tactics now worked out and secured I'm on a roll. Basically, I start my dreads on the table in front of the predators so as to give them cover saves, so as to maximise my firepower from turn 1. I then rush the Dreads forward to wreak havoc and contest enemy objectives.

Here's the best part. I start my noise marines and sorcerers in reserve, the later they come on the better, as 1. This keeps them safe, making it very hard for an opponent to kill both units in only a few turns and 2. I use the Lashes late in the game to move my opponents off of their objectives. This has worked for me the past 3 games in a row and both my scoring units have always survived.

Hope this helps someone - so off to Throne of Skulls I go with List B!

I'll post an update with my results when I return.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Here's the best part. I start my noise marines and sorcerers in reserve, the later they come on the better, as 1. This keeps them safe, making it very hard for an opponent to kill both units in only a few turns and 2. I use the Lashes late in the game to move my opponents off of their objectives. This has worked for me the past 3 games in a row and both my scoring units have always survived. .
Quick Point, you may look at sometimes puting both sorcerers in one squad and starting it on the table, lets you lash from the start and keeps one back for grabing the "home" objective.

as its just a matter of deployment it gives you many ways to shock oppoents who may have seen you play before, makes your games a bit more random..
 
#11 · (Edited)
Funny you should mention that, it was the last mission I played! Actually it worked out fine, as I don't deploy anything and in Dawn of War they all just move on in the first turn anyway. Also, I don't HAVE to deploy the units, I can still declare them as being in reserve. It says you may deploy up to 2 Troops and 1 HQ and that anything you don't deploy comes on in turn 1 unless you declare it to be in reserve.

Incidentally, I did bring them on in turn 1 as the night fight rules protected them (they were at the back) and my search lights on the predators helped light up the Grey Knights terminator unit - which I then promptly blew off the table. Worked out well!
 
#12 ·
my search lights on the predators helped light up the Grey Knights terminator unit - which I then promptly blew off the table. Worked out well!
Cool! Glad you have that sorted..

I was just re-looking at your list, and a thought stuck me.. if you were to run the dreads forward you should be able to use the light and fire the smokelaunchers keeping any return fire off the preds.. I think?
 
#15 ·
I understand your point of view Lepaca, you're right the sonic blasters can sometimes go through games and rarely fire if firing the Blaster Master at a tank. However, experience with Noise marines has taught me to disagree over all. When your Rhino has been popped and you're out in the open with infantry bearing down on you, nothing works better then Lash/Blastmaster/Sonic on full auto to make the enemy take those armour saves... Or if I want to hop out and have a unit let rip with their Assault weapons and then assault for 3 attacks each at Init 5 with a Sorcerer in support - Sonic Blasters/Blast Master still win. Or the classic that I use is a mobile bunker (rhino), with Havoc Launcher, Lash and Blast Master firing every round at any infantry unit who's had their transport popped by my predators.

Further, to not take the Sonic Blaster, makes Noise Marines a very poor unit, relying solely on a 40pt Heavy/Assault weapon - which by itself is not worth it. The main strength of Noise Marines in my opinion is their flexibility. You either buy their upgrades or you just don't take them.

If I wanted chaos marines with Init 5 I would just take a Slaanesh Icon and then grab a couple of special weapons to boot - much cheaper and more effective. However that's not really the point - as the most effective troops choices for their points are berserkers and plague marines (in my opinion). Noise Marines are over costed when you upgrade everything on them - I agree. But you do get a unit that is fantastic at everything. Assault or Defence. Now that's what sets them apart from the other cult troops :wink:
 
#16 ·
As a chaos player i have a last minute suggestion for you which could make a difference at this upcoming tourney.
Take the 2nd list but drop the 3 predators, replace with 3 daemonic possession vindicators that will save you 60 points, then replace the sorcerers with duel lash princes or if you insist on sorcerers give them a 2nd power warp time with the remaining points.
Hope this idea helps you
happy wargaming
 
#17 ·
That's... good. Very good in fact. It also happens to sync perfectly with dual lash. Yes, I would keep the sorcerers as my whole theme and story is set around them... but being able to give them warptime as well as lash is awesome. I also happen to own 1 Vindicator already - so I only need to get 2 more...

Ok, I think the list will go like this:

Sorcerer
MoS
Lash
Familiar
Warptime
Melta Bombs
x2 @160pts

5 Noise Marines
4 Sonic Blaster
1 Blast Master
x2 @ 160pts

Rhino
Havoc Launcher
Dozer Blade
x2 @ 55pts

Dreadnought
Missile Launcher
Heavy Flamer
x3 @ 105pts

Vindicator
Daemonic Possession
x3 @ 145pts

1500pts on the nose!!

Any thoughts that concur with this set up? I've found my predators to be good, but not the most reliable when taking out Land Raiders and such... The Vindicators at S10 and roll 2d6 pick the highest to penetrate can change all of that in a pinch...
 
#18 ·
JEEPERS! Has anyone else read the new Chaos FAQ from GW?

OK - Lash now gets a very slight nerf as it now needs to hit (Sorcerer still hits on 2s though) BUT the real magic is the Dreadnought Fire Frenzy update. Now the Dread can only target what's in his 45 Degree Arc Line of Sight. So since I always keep my dreads to the front ONLY the enemy will be in sight when they Frenzy - also even if a unit of mine is in their LOS, I can just move them out of it and then the Dread will shoot at the next target in its LOS.

This has massive implications for all of us Chaos players. I can tell you right now, that I am now going to Throne of Skull with the list above (Demolishers) and all 3 of my Dreads are now packing Multi Meltas.

I'll take the nerf to Lash any day as my army just got seriously boosted over all.

NASTY :shok:
 
#21 ·
Q: Does Warptime allow the psyker to pick and choose
which To Hit and To Wound dice he will re-roll? (p88)
A: No. He can decide after each To Hit or To Wound roll
but he must re-roll all dice or no dice

Not sure how you played it but our store let you pick what you wanted to reroll.
 
#23 ·
If you ran plasma cannons on the dreads I think it would have better synergy both with lash and the new rulings of fire frenzy then h.flamers but that's my preference as it would still be anti horde and the same cost.
If you just have a parking lot formation going I would say put havocs on the vindi's since they aren't moving or make one of your squads 6 with a champ that has doom siren to compensate for the lost of the heavy flamers on the dreads and more anti horde/MEQ. I'll admit I don't play Noise marines so their might be better options for the squads.
 
#24 ·
You have a point mate. I did consider plasma cannons for the Lash but decided against it for a couple of reasons. I have plenty of Lash syncing templates already (Havoc launchers, Demolisher, Blast Master), however I really only have 3 effective anti tank weapons in the Demolisher Cannons and if they're gone then Land Raiders will own me. Hence 3 Melta dreads should do the trick.

I can't really play this army as a parking lot force in an Objective game, as I find that my 2 scoring units are too easily contested - so I will tend to move with my Vindicators to help with their range and contest enemy objectives. Also, if firing the Demolisher Cannon, I can't fire anything else as its an Ordnance weapon.

Don't know what to do about the Sorcs now... I'm thinking Gift of Chaos might be good, to target out those pesky power fists and the like before they instant kill me.
 
#25 · (Edited)
My logic would be you would have tried to lash them away and failed so you are now in combat and probably about to eat a powerfist regardless so GoC is moot. You'd also need to give up your meltabombs so you could get the familiar and GoC ~ granted meltabombs are kind of a hail mary on the best of days.

Maybe extra armour on the dreads to keep them moving and in front of the troops ?

My thoughts on AV is that in a 1500pt game how many land raiders are you going to come across 2 maybe 3 (that's like 6-900pts isn't it ?) , 3 vindi's should be able to put them down rather quickly especially using rhinos/dreads to LOS block while they get moved up - that said I agree that it's not a bad choice to have meltas on the dreads as AP 1 is always nice although not as hot against the storm ravens that are my bane -_-.

Have you thought of Defilers at all or not to your theme ?

Or add a champion to each group with a sonic blaster (in lieu of a regular troop) and power weapon so that between the group you have 5 power weapon attacks to try and kill the powerfist same point cost as GoC and makes the unit stronger as whole.
 
#26 ·
Ahhh Defilers - yes. I love them! I've got 2 converted into 'Scream Engines', but I have dropped them due to theme. I was reading the Horus Heresy series and learnt lots about how the Emperor's Children like to fight with these perfect 'battle tactics' and 'crossing fields of fire' with support from tanks like predators... So I thought I would carry that through to their post Heresy era.

The thing I like about Gift is that I can use it in combat and since I play lots of Eldar who take Seer Councils, casting it on their Farseer or Enhance Warlock, is pure gold as well as adding another figure to fight the combat with me (Spawn). Besides - I really have no other option for increasing the Sorcs combat utility now. I mean Warptime is still ok, but not that great any more for its points.

Extra armour on the Dreads is a good idea though... Damn it's ruined my tactic with Warptime being nerfed like that!

As a side note - do you know if the spawn that is generated by Gift will concede a Kill Point if the enemy kills it? Because that would be annoying.
 
#27 ·
Warptime was badly nerfed. You have to reroll ALL dice involved in the check you don't like, not just the ones that failed. Lash was slightly nerfed, as it goes off at the same time as shooting from your squad (no clumping for Sorc. squad plasmas) and needs to hit.
 
#28 ·
Yes the spawn would be worth another KP , that said if you don't have a spawn they just melt in to a pool of goo and are removed from game (not as cool as a spawn but still effective)

And fair enough about keeping theme , I totally respect that. I've just found defilers to be more useful then vindis for the most part and noticed you had swapped your heavy support around.
 
#29 ·
@ Creon - thanks, I agree, Lash is still good only a slight nerf. But Warptime... well, it's not even worth taking really.

@ Tyr852 - annoying it would concede a KP, but yes I could just not place a model in a KP game... :grin: The Defilers always did their points when I used them, they were brutal in conjunction with my 2 Dreads and 2 Princes at the time. I was running a Chaoszilla list I guess?! Anyway - it won me many games but I wanted to really have a themed (but competitive) Emperor's Children army. I'm kind of sick of seeing every Chaos list with 2 Princes in it... Can't wait for the Legions Codex when it arrives, should be back like the good old days then.

I'm still leaning towards Gift I think, at least I'll have something to do with them in combat...
 
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