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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-19-17, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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Default Chaos Space Marines Codex Overhaul

Hello guys,

Yesterday I started undertaking a project I have been thinking about for quite some time now.

With 8th edition on the way, which will drastically change the rules, I decided to make a rules overhaul regarding 3-7th edition material.

As a test, I will first overhaul the CSM codex. With all 4 codices in front of me, I cross-refer units through several editions, and I will also fix issues most players find in it. I will be honest, most of the material is in line with 6th ed. codex statlines and 3.5ed. unit rule additions/options plus a few "5th" ed. touches. I use the Loyalist codices & supplements for reference and comparisons as well though.

I try as much as I can not to tamper with rules from scratch, but to utilize rules existing in older codices, there are no 100% homebrew rules here, everything is based on rules CSM units used to have plus some additions based on logic (ie. grenades on Warp Talons, Thousand Sons Characters bearing whatever Force Weapons they want, Possessed utilizing pre-purchased abilities, Warp Talons and Possessed bearing a Mark of Chaos becoming Daemons of their god, etc). Points costs were recalculated by comparison to Loyalist counterparts, and/or deduction, breaking down the points cost of a unit and finding what abilities cost what and adjusting points appropriately. What I am trying to produce here is a codex with fixed & fair points costs and the proper flavor of Chaos Space Marines we so much enjoyed in the 3.5 codex, in a modernized & streamlined mash-up of several CSM codices from all editions. I don't think that after the overhaul this "Codex" would dominate tournaments, but if you use it, I strongly believe it feels "right" by fixing some unfair handicaps within it and restoring some roles and options which used to add variety and diversity. Some units have become cheaper, others have become more expensive, but with enough additional tricks to justify their cost. Enjoy.

First, individual units will be overhauled. Then, armory & wargear additions and editing will commence and lastly, some Legion-specific rules will carry over from the 3.5 dex (like, for example, Sonic Weapon options for Emperor's Children vehicles & Terminators).

Everything wil be cleanly written on a PDF file as a new dex, the wall of text and the rule explanations can be messy, but they are easier to edit and correct!


This is what I've got so far (commentary below each entry):


NEW (not really) SPECIAL RULE: FAVOURED OF CHAOS:
A unit bearing the Mark of a Chaos God, numbering the number of models corresponding to that deity's Sacred Number (6 for Slaanesh, 7 for Nurgle, 8 for Khorne, 9 for Tzeentch) or its multiples, has the following bonus:

-Chaos Space Marine, Cultist, Chaos Terminator, Khorne Berzerker, Noise Marine, Rubric Marine, Chaos Biker, Raptor, Warp Talon & Havoc squads use the points cost in brackets as their base unit cost.

-Chosen & Possessed squads may purchase an Icon of their patron at the points cost listed in brackets.

-Tzaangor squads upgrade one Tzaangor to a Twistbray for no points cost.

**This is one of the most flavorful rules CSM used to have. The points reduction is the calculated points cost of the Champion model of the unit, in most cases being -10pts for a squad. Possessed & Chosen don't have a price difference for Champion models, so they get a discount for an Icon instead. This rule actually encourages players to use Sacred Numbers on their squads. The points drop is still not enough perhaps to competitively field Sacred Number squads, but it makes such lists less taxing.**




CHAOS LORD / EXALTED SORCERER
Unless having the Mark of Khorne, a Chaos Lord may become an Exalted Sorcerer by taking a Mastery Level, becoming a Psyker and replacing his close combat weapon/Terminator power weapon with a Force Weapon for +10pts. (and up to 2 additional psyker levels for 25pts each).

-A Chaos Lord may take Fleshmetal for 20pts.

**Makes for more flexible, modular psyker HQs**




CHAOS LIEUTENANT / SORCERER

50pts, Sorcerer statline, same wargear options with the Chaos Lord.
Unless having the Mark of Khorne, a Chaos Lord may become a Sorcerer by taking a Mastery Level, becoming a Psyker and replacing his close combat weapon/Terminator power weapon with a Force Weapon for +10pts. (and up to 2 additional psyker levels for 25pts each).

-May take Fleshmetal for 20pts.

**This brings back the option of a cheaper infantry HQ while still keeping the Sorcerer option as it was.**




DAEMON PRINCE

-Daemon Princes now cost 150pts and are Ld10.

A Daemon Prince may purchase A Mark of Chaos, also becoming a Daemon of that God for the following cost:
Khorne 25pts
Tzeentch 30pts
Slaanesh 25pts
Nurgle 30pts

-Daemon Princes may take Power Armour for 10pts or Fleshmetal for 30pts.

**An immortal champion of Chaos being Ld9 is insanity, restored to 10 for a small points cost increase. Daemon Princes could always be Undivided, I don't see a reason to stop being so now. Also, being former mortal Champions, Daemon Princes dedicated to a God ought to also have Marks. Dropped the cost of Power Armour to 10pts, a 3+ Save is in no way worth its former cost. Added the option for Fleshmetal**




DARK APOSTLE

-Dark Apostles can now access Special Issue Wargear and Daemonic Steeds.
-May take Fleshmetal for 20pts.

**There is no reason for them not to have such access**




WARPSMITH
-Warpsmiths can now access Special Issue Wargear and may take.

**There is no reason for them not to have such access**




CHAOS SPACE MARINES, NOISE MARINES & HAVOCS
-Chaos Space Marines, Noise Marines & Havocs cost 1 point less per model. Close Combat Weapons cost 1 point for Chaos Space Marines and Havocs too.

**This balances the cost of CSM compared to Loyalist Marines, I treat Combat Squads & ATSKNF as 1pt/model each. I know that in most Legion detachments VotlW is free, but that helps offset another issue along with the Favoured of Chaos special rule, that of lackluster detachment bonuses compared to other armies -cough- free transports -cough-**




CHOSEN

-Chosen now have Infiltrate. Power Weapons & Single Lightning Claws cost 5pts each, Pairs of Lightning Claws cost 10pts and Power Fists cost 15pts.

**The way they are in 6th ed. codex, shooty Chosen are easily replaced by Special Weapon Havocs. Getting 5th ed. Infiltrate back gives them a different tactical role. Melee weapon costs adjusted to Vanguard standards**




POSSESSED

-Possessed with a Mark of Chaos also become a Daemon of their respective God. For this reason, all Marks of Chaos cost 5pts/model for them.

They may purchase their ability instead of rolling for it at the listed points cost:
-Move as Jump Infantry for +3pts/model
-Rending for+3pts/model
-Shooting attack (12" S4 AP6 Assault 2) for +2pts/model
-+1 Attack for +2pts/model

**They remain expensive, but now they are definitely not useless. I can see a squad with Rending doing quite good. Or a squad moving as Jump Infantry, along with Fleet can be scary. The added Daemon of- rule gives them a few more tricks to justify the high cost**




CHAOS TERMINATORS

-Chaos Terminators: A 3-man squad now costs 90pts, each additional Terminator costs 29pts.
Wargear cost for the squad champion is the same with the rest of the squad.
Single Lightning Claws, Pairs of Lightning Claws and Powerfists cost 4pts.
Chainfists cost 9pts.

**I reverse-calculated the points cost of Imperial Assault, Cataphractii & regular Terminators (including ATSKNF and Combat Squads as 1pt each), and found Chaos Terminators and their wargear options to be overpriced. I adjusted them accordingly.**




KHORNE BERZERKERS

-Khorne Berzerkers cost 20pts/model and are equipped with Khornate Chain Weapons.

**I would say "Khornate Chainaxes", but the models also have swords Khornate Chain Weapons used to cause a lot of grief from Imperial players, as their wounds can be saved from a maximum armour save of 4+, which made them ultra-scary against 2+ and 3+ armoured units. Back in 3-4th ed. this option was not limited to Berzerkers, but I feel it's better to stay exclusive to them (only World Eaters Chosen & World Eaters Terminators might be able to also purchase those), so that they have an edge over Khorne-Marked CSM. With this small addition, I believe that Berzerkers become a real menace, they were too sub-par for a dedicated melee unit.**




RUBRIC MARINES

-Aspiring Sorcerers have a Force Weapon, not necessarily a staff.
-For every nine models in the unit, one Rubric Marine may replace his inferno boltgun with a soulreaper cannon.

**Any Force weapon on Aspiring Sorcerers is a no-brainer, as the original models came with Force Swords. Soulreaper cannons at 9 models is a fair reward for any player actually paying the cost of a 9-model unit**




SCARAB OCCULT TERMINATORS

-Minimum squad size reduced to 3 members (1 Occult Scarab Sorcerer [Mastery Level 1] and 2 Occult Scarab Terminators), costing 145pts.
-The squad is equipped with a Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour.
-The Occult Scarab Sorcerer has a Force Weapon, not necessarily a staff.
-The Occult Scarab Sorcerer may generate powers from the Tzeentch Discipline. May be upgraded to mastery level 2, becoming able to generate powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology (Malefic), Divination, Ectomancy, Geomortis, Heretech, Pyromancy, Sinistrum, Telekinesis and Telepathy disciplines.

***Reduced minimum squad size and Sorcerer's Mastery level to make Scarab Occult Terminators acually fieldable. The models clearly wear Tartaros pattern armour, so no reason not to include it in their Wargear.***




MUTILATORS

-Mutilators now cost 60pts each. If a Mutilator unit is locked in combat at the start of a Fight sub-phase, they must choose one of the weapons options listed in their codex entry. Their Wargear is Terminator Armour and their special rules are Fear, Mutilator Weapons and Slow & Purposeful.

***They now cost a bit more, but they can use their weapons consecutively. Changed their Wargear/Special Rules to Terminator Armour & Fear instead of Fleshmetal, Deep Strike & Daemon. I don't know why GW insists on not writing down as Terminator armour, it's quite clear visibly.***




HELBRUTE

-Helbrutes cost 100pts (as FAQ'd), and have Smoke Launchers.
May take any of the following items from the Chaos Vehicle equipment list: Daemonic Possession, Dirge Caster, Warpflame Gargoyles, extra armour, havoc launcher.
-Crazed is now rolled for at the start of the controlling player's turn instead of the start of the movement phase.

**I can't find a valid reason for Helbrutes not having Smoke Launchers. With the Vehicle Dedications, it may get some boosting from them as well. I remember may cool conversions on Chaos Dreadnoughts with Havoc Launchers back in 3rd ed., would be a good addition to any Helbrute. The small wording detail regarding Crazed helps the Mayhem Pack Formation by knowing the Crazed result before deploying them via Deep Strike.**




RAPTORS

-Raptors become 20pts/model and now have Hit & Run.

**Hit & Run was removed from Raptors in 5th edition, it's time they got it back**




WARP TALONS

-Warp Talons become 33pts/model and now have Assault Grenades and Hit & Run. Warp Talons with a Mark of Chaos also become Daemons of the respective God. For this reason, all Marks of Chaos cost 5pts/model.

**Grenades were something Warp Talons should obviously have. Being mutated Raptors, the Hit & Run rule transfers on to them. Being Daemons of a deity feels right both fluffwise and ruleswise (a different style of versatility than Raptors)**


HELDRAKE

-Heldrakes now cost 160pts.

[b]**Points cost dropped on all models with Daemonforge, due to it already having a downside (by deduction I figured Daemonforge to be about 15pts, which is too much for a one-use ability which has the chance of damaging the model, so I dropped its cost**[b/]




OBLITERATORS

-Obliterators now cost 75pts each. The entire squad must choose to fire the same weapon in each the shooting phase, chosen from the following:

-Assault Cannon
-Heavy Flamer
-Lascannon
-Multimelta
-Plasma Cannon
-Twin-Linked Flamer
-Twin-Linked Plasmagun
-Twin-Linked Meltagun

**More in line with the 5th ed. Codex, with an appropriate point cost increase, but now may shoot the same weapon consecutively**



DEFILER
-Defilers now cost 180pts and have a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter instead of a reaper autocannon. The Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter may be upgraded to a power fist for free, to reaper autocannon for 5pts or to a twin-linked lascannon for 25pts.

**Tried to shave points since IWND, Daemon & Daemonforge should cost something, best I could do was make it 10pts cheaper due to Daemonforge being overcosted and made the heavy bolter downgrade a default, making the reaper autocannon an upgrade option, saving some base points from there as well.**




FORGEFIEND

-Forgefiends now cost 145pts and come with 2 ectoplasma cannons, which may both be upgraded to two hades autocannons for 20pts. May take an additional Ectoplasma cannon for 25pts or an additional hades autocannon for 35pts.

**Points cost dropped by 10pts on all models with Daemonforge, due to it already having a downside. By looking at the Rapier battery, I realized that a hades autocannon is 10pts more expensive than an ectoplasma cannon, so in order to reduce base cost, I made the ectoplasma cannon the default and made the hades autocannons an upgrade. I also added the option for an extra hades autocannon.**




MAULERFIEND

-Maulerfiends now cost 115pts

**No changes other than the points drop due to Daemonforge being overcosted.**




CHAOS LAND RAIDER

-Chaos Land Raiders may purchase the "Infernal Machine" upgrade for 20pts (works like Power of the Machine Spirit).

**Now Chaos Land Raiders can be of some use have their cost justified.**




I want 2 things from you, guys:

1) Comments and opinions so far. I don't know if these overhauls will make CSM more competitive, they will definitely make them more "CSM", and the dynamics of some lists are improved (I can see the Maelstrom of Gore becoming scary, EC Terminators with Sonic Weapons deep striking and hitting targets Sorcerers have targeted with Symphony of Pain, Raptors being more tactically flexible, 7x7 Plague Colonies with Rhinos and actual Rubric Marine squads on the table thanks to the Favoured of Chaos rule. Several upgrade options opened to vehicles make them more viable now as well).

2) Which other units you believe need an overhaul? I would like to hear your suggestions on other units.

6th Ed. Tournament Log:
Slaanesh Chaos Marines Tourney list 0/0/0
Nurgle Chaos Marines list 0/0/0
Winner of Greek 40K GT 2009 (Chaos Space Marines)



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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-19-17, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Part 2: Wargear (wip)

Surprisingly, almost everything seems fine in the 6th ed. Codex. I only found a huge point difference between weapon options for characters in Terminator armor replacing the combi-bolter. Combi-Bolter weapon replacements become the following:

Combi Flamer-melta-plasma 5pts.
Power Weapon 10pts
Lightning Claw 10pts
Power Fist 20
Chainfist 25


VEHICLE DEDICATION

Tanks and Walkers from the Codex: Chaos Space Marines may be dedicated to a Chaos God for the points cost listed below. Only units with the Mark of the same God or unmarked units may embark on Transports dedicated to a Chaos God:

**Those rules were clearly not meant for Fliers, that's why I am leaving them alone. They come straight from the 3.5ed. codex, with their points cost adjusted. They are not that great, they mostly add flavor, and dedicated vehicles will NOT be mandatory in legions, as they were not back in 3-4th ed. either.**

KHORNE (20pts): If given to a tank, it counts as a Destroyer Blades upgrade, re-rolling a single failed to-wound roll per tank shock. If given to a walker, it may re-roll a single failed melee attack in every fight sub-phase. Helbrutes dedicated to Khorne, when rolling on the Crazed table count Fire Frenzy results as Blood Rage instead.

**costs more than Destroyer Blades, so I gave it a small bonus on tanks to justify its cost. I was considering instead of re-rolling a single failed to-wound roll to re-roll all to-wound rolls of 1. Which is more preferable for the 5 more points this costs compared to Destroyer Blades?**


NURGLE (10pts): At the end of the controlling player's shooting phase, the controlling player rolls a D6 for every enemy model within 6" of the vehicle. On a roll of 6, that model takes a wound, with armour saves allowed.

**Nothing impressive, I don't know if I should further drop the points cost or make it more powerful.**


SLAANESH (15pts): Enemy units within 12" of the vehicle make Ld tests at -3 Leadership, within 36" at -2 Leadership and in contact at -3 Leadership. The effect is not cumulative with other Vehicles dedicated to Slaanesh, each enemy unit is affected by the vehicle closest to them.

**With so many Fear-defying armies on the table nowdays this won't find much use, but will occasionally be fun.**


TZEENTCH (10pts): Any model attacking the Vehicle takes a STR D6 AP4 hit before resolving its attacks.

**Looks more impressive than it actually is, a mediocre melee counter-measure. Might have some use on Helbrutes.**

6th Ed. Tournament Log:
Slaanesh Chaos Marines Tourney list 0/0/0
Nurgle Chaos Marines list 0/0/0
Winner of Greek 40K GT 2009 (Chaos Space Marines)



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LEGION SPECIFICS

Here, I am either transferring 3.5 Legion rules left behind in Traitor Legions, or modifying existing similar Traitor Legions rules to match them, plus a fe clarifications.

CLARIFICATIONS

Chaos Lieutenants with at least 1 Psychic Mastery level replace the “Sorcerer” unit in Thousand Sons Formations.
The "Sorcerer" unit of the Cyclopia Cabal Formation is replaced by a Chaos Lord or Lieutenant with at least 1 Psychic Mastery Level.
The "Sorcerer" unit of the Chaos Warband, Black Legion Warband, The Chosen of Abaddon is replaced by a Chaos Lieutenant (even without Psychic Mastery levels).
A Chaos Lieutenant may be taken in a Terminator Anihilation Force.

**A necessary clarification following the removal of the Sorcerer as a separate entry**


-ALPHA LEGION

Any unit equipped with Power Armour, Daemonic Armour or Improvised Armour may take the Infiltrate Special Rule at +1pt/model. A Character with access to Chaos Rewards may take Infiltrate for 5pts.

**Gives more options than the restricted Traitor Legions version, now you can also infiltrate Havocs, Possessed, Raptors & Warp Talons**.


-IRON WARRIORS

A Chaos Lords and/or Lieutenant may be equipped with a Servo Arm for 30pts. A model with a Servo-Arm may repair vehicles (see Warpsmith). A Servo-Arm can be used in close combat with the following profile:

Range: Melee Sx2 AP1 Unweildy, Specialist Weapon

**It's really cool being able to convert your own Lord with an extra mechanical arm without being stuck with the Warpsmith Statline**


An Iron Warriors Combined Arms Detatchment has 1 extra Heavy Support or Fortification Slot, but 2 less Fast Attack Slots.

**The old CAD configuration for Iron Warriors, with the option for Fortifications (which did not exist in 3rd-4th editions)**


-NIGHT LORDS

A Night Lords Combined Arms Detatchment has 1 extra Fast Attack Slots, but 2 less Heavy Support slots.

**The old CAD configuration for Night Lords**


-WORD BEARERS

A Word Bearers Combined Arms Detatchment has 3 extra Troops Slots, but 1 less Elites, Fast Attack & Heavy Support slot.

**The old CAD configuration for Word Bearers**


-WORLD EATERS

Chaos Terminators may gain +1WS for 2pts/model. Any Chaos Terminator may replace his Power Weapon for a Khornate Chain Weapon for free.

**This WS increse, along with the Mark & Icon of Khorne make Terminators identical to Berzerkers in Terminator Armour. The Khornate Chain Weapon option is another flavorful option, effective for Initiative attacks against 2+Sv enemies.**


Chosen may replace their Close Combat Weapons with Khornate Chain Weapons for +7pts/model.

**Infiltrating Khornate Chosen with assault weapons and Khornate Chain Weapons can be really scary, paying premium for it, though, nearly as half a Power Weapon.**


-DEATH GUARD

In a Combined Arms Detachment, only up to 2 Chaos Space Marine or Plague Marine units may have a Rhino as a dedicated transport. Any further Chaos Space Marine or Plague Marine units utilizing a Rhino as a dedicated transport count as Fast Attack choices.

**This is a rule which is not going to see wide use, as most people play Vectoriums. It is flavorful nevertheless. There is also another rule restricting the use of Heavy weapons for DG infantry, which I am not transferring over, it makes no real sense since DG now get Relentless.**


Chaos Terminators and Chosen may be equipped with Blight Grenades for 5pts/model.

Chosen may replace their Close Combat Weapons for Plague Knives for 3pts/model.

**Death Guard specials**


-EMPEROR'S CHILDREN

Chaos Predators dedicated to Slaanesh may replace their Autocannon with a Blastmaster, and/or their Heavy Bolters with Sonic Blasters for free.

**Sonic Predators and FW Sonic Dreadnoughts, the way it should be!**


Chaos Terminators may replace their combi-bolters with Sonic Blasters for 2pts. Chaos Terminators may also upgrade a Reaper Autocannon to a Blastmaster for +7pts.

**Noise Terminators! We all missed those, I am sure..!**


Chosen may take Doom Sirens instead of Plasmaguns at the same points cost and upgrade a Lascannon to a Blastmaster for +10pts.

**Noise Marines can use Sonic Blasters in abundance, making Chosen act like Infiltrating NM would render the latter obsolete. An infiltrating squad full of Doom Sirens can be nasty. Since Chosen may take a Heavy Weapon, a Blastmaster is a flavorful idea and can be useful if the unit is utilizing a Rhino**.

6th Ed. Tournament Log:
Slaanesh Chaos Marines Tourney list 0/0/0
Nurgle Chaos Marines list 0/0/0
Winner of Greek 40K GT 2009 (Chaos Space Marines)



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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelofHope View Post
NEW (not really) SPECIAL RULE: FAVOURED OF CHAOS:
A unit bearing the Mark of a Chaos God, numbering the number of models corresponding to that deity's Sacred Number (6 for Slaanesh, 7 for Nurgle, 8 for Khorne, 9 for Tzeentch) has its Character model's cost removed and counts as 10 models for wargear options.

**This is one of the most flavorful rules CSM used to have (to calculate the Character model's cost, simply multiply the cost of an individual squad member by the number of models in the squad entry and deduct it from the squad's basic cost. The difference is the Character model's cost). In most cases, this will be a -10pts for a squad, with the exception of Rubric Marines & Occult Scarab Terminators, where it will be more, which is also fine in my opinion, as those are really expensive anyway. It actually encourages players to use Sacred Numbers on their squads. The points drop is still not enough to competitively field Sacred Number squads, but it makes such lists less taxing and more decent**
This is very convoluted the way you have written it, and for no reason honestly.

I like the idea of taking a favoured number having some sort of impact, but there are much easier buffs and bonus's you could give.

Since the cost of the champion is already included in the basic squad, don't bother trying to remove the points from the squad; as you said its not the same deduction across the board, so it can get confusing for no reason.

Instead let the buff be based on the squad, say a 35 point reduction for cult squads and normal squads being treated as ten strong. (Hell why not give a second bonus for hitting the favoured number a second time; maybe let the icon be a free upgrade.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelofHope View Post
-Chaos Lord can take a single Psyker Mastery level & a Force Weapon for 20pts (and up to 2 additional psyker levels for 25pts each)

**This brings back the "Sorcerer Lord".**
Kinda makes having the sorcerer option (or in the case here Lieutenant option) completely useless don't you think? Why not just limit it to the first mastery level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelofHope View Post
**This brings the option of a cheaper HQ**
Why does chaos need access to a cheaper HQ? Its not like most armies have access to an HQ choice thats less than 50 points and for a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelofHope View Post
-Chaos Space Marines & Havocs cost 1 point less per model (5 points less per basic squad)

**This balances the cost of CSM compared to Loyalist Marines, I treat Combat Squads & ATSKNF as 1pt/model each. I know that in most Legion detachments VotlW is free, but that helps offset another issue along with the Favoured of Chaos special rule, that of lackluster detachment bonuses compared to other armies -cough- free transports -cough-**
Your making this more complicated than its needs to be, keep the point cost the same but give them close combat weapons, bolters, and bolt pistols.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelofHope View Post
-Possessed with a Mark of Chaos also become a Daemon of their respective God. For this reason, all Marks of Chaos cost 5pts/model.

They may purchase their ability instead of rolling for it at the listed points cost:
-Move as Jump Infantry +15pts/model
-Rending: +5pts/model
-Shooting attack (12" S4 AP6 Assault 2) +5pts/model
-Enemy units defeated in close combat test at -2Ld +2pts/model
-+1 Attack +10pts/model
I wouldn't bother changing the cost of the marks personally; and would allow them to choose one ability from a list (like what you have here) with the option to 'buy' an additional choice at (say) 5 points per model (and perhaps a third time at another 5 but one step at a time.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelofHope View Post
**They remain expensive, but now they are definitely not useless.
They haven't been useless for a long time you know..

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelofHope View Post
2) Which other units you believe need an overhaul? I would like to hear your suggestions on other units.
Personally, outside of say the basic chaos marine squad and cultist squad, I don't think theres much alteration the base codex really needs. Something like favoured number is neat, but thats, in my opinion, about it.

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-Regarding the Sorcerer Lord and Lieutenant:

The Sorcerer Lord and Lieutenant were present until 5th edition, where they disappeared for no reason, while Loyalists kept Captains. A Sorcerer Lord doesn't make the Lieutenant Sorcerer redundant because of the cost. Most competitive players nowdays need to stuff as many psychic dice as they can as cheaply as possible. A Sorcerer Lord is simply a more formidable Lord, and since Mastery is paid premium, there is nothing wrong with it in my opinion.

Same goes for the Lieutenant. Practically, adding a Psyker level makes him a 6th-ed. Sorcerer. I increased the base cost by 10pts to get it to 50 and dropped the cost of 1st psyker level by 10pts.


-Regarding the Favoured of Chaos and the point adjustments of CSM/Havocs:
This is a list of changes. Once finished, I will write everything nicely in a PDF file in the traditional codex style, it won't be confusing at all.

-Regarding Possessed:
They always had 1 ability active, be it purchased or rolled. I am simply converting older rules to the current edition, I try not to mess with new rules as much as I can (which is unavoidable in some instances, but I am trying).

By the way, I have modified some costs while you were typing, it seems

My personal opinion, along with many older CSM players is that CSM since 5th ed. don't really feel like they used to, each edition downgrading them further into lackluster ragtags. Nowdays all we see is Magnus & Friends Summonspam (can't really call it "CSM") and FW Renegades (again, can't really call it "CSM"). Traitor Legions tried to patch up a few things, but still, we end up with overpriced, lackluster units and few things outside sub-par, cookie-cutter Warbands (which are not that effective against armies which don't need an update as well).

In no way my suggested changes make CSM "top tier", "OP" or even more competitive really (a stormsurge/riptide/Eldar list will still destroy a CSM force with the above modifications with ease), but they definitely fix some problems, bring use to some units we haven't seen in tourneys for years and give the codex a "CSM" feel.

6th Ed. Tournament Log:
Slaanesh Chaos Marines Tourney list 0/0/0
Nurgle Chaos Marines list 0/0/0
Winner of Greek 40K GT 2009 (Chaos Space Marines)



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Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
This is very convoluted the way you have written it, and for no reason honestly.

I like the idea of taking a favoured number having some sort of impact, but there are much easier buffs and bonus's you could give.

Since the cost of the champion is already included in the basic squad, don't bother trying to remove the points from the squad; as you said its not the same deduction across the board, so it can get confusing for no reason.

Instead let the buff be based on the squad, say a 35 point reduction for cult squads and normal squads being treated as ten strong. (Hell why not give a second bonus for hitting the favoured number a second time; maybe let the icon be a free upgrade.)

Pretty much agree on that. Convoluted. better say that if the sacred number is hit, then the unig gets free icon and the champion can get free power weapon of your choice, or something.


They haven't been useless for a long time you know..

Yeah...how long since the last game? 3rd edition? I am all in for using underrated units: i use hellbrutes, mutilators, raptors...but dear god, the possessed unit is a self mutilation. If you want some melee nastyness just go berzerkers, or even mutilators!
I stopped using the critters: they lose to hordes, they lose to enemies in cover, they lose to melee specialists, they lose to gunlines, they lose at being useful in every single aspect of the game.

Personally, outside of say the basic chaos marine squad and cultist squad, I don't think theres much alteration the base codex really needs. Something like favoured number is neat, but thats, in my opinion, about it.

the codex can stay as it is...but many (too many) units seems to be counterproductive and punishing for no reason. have you ever used warp talons with success? have you ever used zerkers and khorne marines in tandem? who perfomed better ?(spoiler: khorne marines) have you ever used a defiler insted of a maulerfiend? have you ever tried to win a melee with mutilators?
The codex can stay, if you like to play against your opponent AND the game itself.
The changes are pretty much ok. I say this: all you do is basically a revamp of 3.5 codex + a splash of 5th/6th edition (old rules and newly introduced units). I'd say you might be better served in taking the 3.5 as a base and adding the necessary rule changes, the new special rules and the new units in it.
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The calls of Slaneesh stir so deeply within me, as if I was birthed from the very essence of it. For my ambition to infinitely ascend above all is never ending, like fire within it burns me to ever cindering ash. Lord of light and ascension is who I am, realities burn to ash at my very passing. My luminescence is unparalleled for I am luminosity itself, all light is but a shadow of my silhouette
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-20-17, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
This is very convoluted the way you have written it, and for no reason honestly.

I like the idea of taking a favoured number having some sort of impact, but there are much easier buffs and bonus's you could give.

Since the cost of the champion is already included in the basic squad, don't bother trying to remove the points from the squad; as you said its not the same deduction across the board, so it can get confusing for no reason.

Instead let the buff be based on the squad, say a 35 point reduction for cult squads and normal squads being treated as ten strong. (Hell why not give a second bonus for hitting the favoured number a second time; maybe let the icon be a free upgrade.)

Pretty much agree on that. Convoluted. better say that if the sacred number is hit, then the unig gets free icon and the champion can get free power weapon of your choice, or something.


They haven't been useless for a long time you know..

Yeah...how long since the last game? 3rd edition? I am all in for using underrated units: i use hellbrutes, mutilators, raptors...but dear god, the possessed unit is a self mutilation. If you want some melee nastyness just go berzerkers, or even mutilators!
I stopped using the critters: they lose to hordes, they lose to enemies in cover, they lose to melee specialists, they lose to gunlines, they lose at being useful in every single aspect of the game.

Personally, outside of say the basic chaos marine squad and cultist squad, I don't think theres much alteration the base codex really needs. Something like favoured number is neat, but thats, in my opinion, about it.

the codex can stay as it is...but many (too many) units seems to be counterproductive and punishing for no reason. have you ever used warp talons with success? have you ever used zerkers and khorne marines in tandem? who perfomed better ?(spoiler: khorne marines) have you ever used a defiler insted of a maulerfiend? have you ever tried to win a melee with mutilators?
The codex can stay, if you like to play against your opponent AND the game itself.
The changes are pretty much ok. I say this: all you do is basically a revamp of 3.5 codex + a splash of 5th/6th edition (old rules and newly introduced units). I'd say you might be better served in taking the 3.5 as a base and adding the necessary rule changes, the new special rules and the new units in it.
EDIT: and, my god, point reductions!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux View Post
The calls of Slaneesh stir so deeply within me, as if I was birthed from the very essence of it. For my ambition to infinitely ascend above all is never ending, like fire within it burns me to ever cindering ash. Lord of light and ascension is who I am, realities burn to ash at my very passing. My luminescence is unparalleled for I am luminosity itself, all light is but a shadow of my silhouette
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-20-17, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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I did a lot of point reductions, CSM, Terminators, Daemon Engines (EDIT: And Possessed), I don't know if you mean that I did enough reductions or I should do more reductions If the case is the latter, point me towards what needs further reduction so I can break down costs and find potential gaps.

Regarding the Sacred Numbers, I believe it looks convulted in the way I have written it here, because I explain the formula and it's a huge wall of text. The way I am going to write it in the PDF will be a codex entry as we know it with the Favored points cost in a bracket, it won't be complicated at all (I am trying to transfer the rule as precisely as I can). I am removing the "count as 10 models", this may complicate things in squads with multiples of the Sacred Numbers.

The rule will be written like this:

FAVOURED OF CHAOS: Units with Marks of Chaos numbering as many models as their deity's Sacred number (or a multiple of the Sacred Number) have their base cost reduced, costing the number of points shown in brackets.

This is a rushed wording in order to reply to your comment, a more compact wording can be achieved.


Just imagine the codex entry will be like this:

CHAOS SPACE MARINES 75 (65) Points


Doesn't look confusing at all, in my opinion.

I tried taking the 3.5 dex as a base, but the point system was way different and some rules don't mix well. I really liked the idea of the Lord becoming a Prince, but this means that I would have to tamper with the whole Armoury and Daemonic Gifts etc, which in the end doesn't really add that much. I am not 100% trying to reproduce the 3.5 dex and I avoid making up rules from my head or writing a "fandex" (most "fixes" I have seen are simply wild imagination with Rhinos as Assault vehicles, outrageous made-up rules etc.). I am transferring the elements which made CSM feel like CSM again, without it being an obvious imaginary product. I want it to be like, if printed and handed to a new player among with other codices to feel like it's one of them. Like this, I don't mind getting ripped apart by riptides and Wraithknights every day :D

I mostly use 6th ed. as a base, since it's the most recent and in line (not really in line, but you know what I mean, statlines and basic rules) with the other armies, adding some 3.5 rules (and some 5th, like on Obliterators & Mutilators).

A couple of questions:

1. Is there a listed price for Hades Autocannons (as an option for a vehicle or as an upgrade to another weapon, so I reverse-calculate the cost).

2. Should I include "Infernal Machine" (the Chaos Version of POTMS) as an option for Chaos Land Raiders for 20pts?

Keep the feedback coming, I am but a single brain!

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Slaanesh Chaos Marines Tourney list 0/0/0
Nurgle Chaos Marines list 0/0/0
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Last edited by AngelofHope; 04-20-17 at 08:45 PM.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-20-17, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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Added Khornate Chain Weapons option for World Eaters Chosen & Terminators, Blight Grenades option for Death Guard Terminators & Chosen, Plague Knife option for Death Guard Chosen, and Doom Siren & Blastmaster options for Emperor's Children Chosen.
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6th Ed. Tournament Log:
Slaanesh Chaos Marines Tourney list 0/0/0
Nurgle Chaos Marines list 0/0/0
Winner of Greek 40K GT 2009 (Chaos Space Marines)


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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-20-17, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neferhet
Yeah...how long since the last game? 3rd edition? I am all in for using underrated units: i use hellbrutes, mutilators, raptors...but dear god, the possessed unit is a self mutilation. If you want some melee nastyness just go berzerkers, or even mutilators!
I stopped using the critters: they lose to hordes, they lose to enemies in cover, they lose to melee specialists, they lose to gunlines, they lose at being useful in every single aspect of the game.
Well I don't know about your meta, but I got trashed by someone fielding a lot of possessed last weekend. I'm gonna assume its because he knows how to play to their strengths while mitigating their weaknesses, something thats gonna be a lot harder for someone like yourself who likely avoids them like a plague.

Don't get me wrong, possessed are expensive and could do with, perhaps, an extra wound or feel no pain, but they aren't as bad as your trying to make them out to be.

Base 2 attacks, strength five, daemon, and fleet are not a bad start on a MEQ platform; and if you give them mark of nurgle for the added toughness or slaanesh for initiative. They can go toe to toe with a lot of stuff, and hardly need a large overhaul.

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Seriously, is it really that hard to write reviews without spoilers?

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