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post #1 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
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40K needs to be rewritten, BADLY!!!!

There needs to be AT LEAST two different versions of this game!

I've stopped playing because people are all about competition and the people who would rather just convert some awesome models and play scenario games are getting screwed by the new rules systems. There's a butt load of special rules and counter rules and meta-gaming that have ruined the game for me. I have almost no interest in playing it, but I still feel the burning need to cleanse, purge, and kill the unclean.

I propose there be a competition set of rules with a rule book and codecies (as it is now) and a lighter version that isn't completely compatible but comes as a single book full of all the rules needed to play all the major armies in a fun and fast way.

This faster version would have all the cool rules we love as scenario players, such as VDR(vehicle design rules) and MDR (monster design rules). The scenario book would be thicker and cost more than the competition core rule book but it would have more in it and be thicker. I realize this sounds like a contradiction (simplify the rules but make more of them), but the little special character rules are a lot harder to keep track of, than a rule that is universal for both armies playing.

The competition core rule book could cut out a lot of the fluff to make it thinner and easier to carry to tournaments.

I think these changes are LONG overdue. But if it were up to me, I would produce THREE versions of the rule book. I would also post a digital copy of a more realistic rule book online. The 40K "Realism" rules would expand weapon ranges and make bombardment pieces, such as the Basilisk and Deathstrike unusable on anything but massive tables (more than 10 feet).

Discuss.

:SD:

Last edited by RexTalon; 11-03-10 at 10:59 PM.
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post #2 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 11:22 PM
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Well their isn't anything stopping you and your mates having a friendly game.

You don't have to follow the rulebook 100%, you can have house rules, create your own scenarios etc.

As you said, the majority of players are competitive. Now, as a business, GW want to appeal to them, as they are the main consumers. Why would they produce lots of books like what you suggested for the minority?

And at the end of the day, like I just said, you can create your own stuff based around what you want.
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post #3 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 11:51 PM
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My friends and i had just this discussion, we fixed it by allowing units form 3rd ed codexes onwards in apocalypse games, as well as vdr, mdr rules. This allows over the top fluffy characters from say the 3.5 edition chaos codex as well as special rules armies like the legion of the damned list etc. It just means you have to play in private clubs instead of in gw stores.

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post #4 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 12:01 AM
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I disagree.
It needs to be rewritten WELL and PROPERLY. :D

It is already written badly. To re-write it badly doesn't change that.
They already grammar english fail, and math fail.

Hey! Where'd ... Everybody ... go?
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post #5 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RexTalon View Post
There needs to be AT LEAST two different versions of this game!
That's all we need, yet another way to divide the hobby into secular groups.

Quote:
I've stopped playing because people are all about competition and the people who would rather just convert some awesome models and play scenario games are getting screwed by the new rules systems.
What game are you playing? Seriously, what? You're going to have to expand on this because I have no idea how hobbyists are getting screwed by the new rules.

Quote:
There's a butt load of special rules and counter rules and meta-gaming that have ruined the game for me. I have almost no interest in playing it, but I still feel the burning need to cleanse, purge, and kill the unclean.
Dude, suck it up. Meta-gaming is part of how these things work. Any game that is constantly changing and evolving has a meta - it's just the way of things.

The rest of your post is pretty much one giant contradiction. You're saying you want a game that plays faster and simpler, yet has complex rules like designing your own vehicles and monsters (and probably characters too)? It doesn't work like that. If you want the game to play fast and smooth, you want to minimize the number of rules there are to remember and write them in an extremely clear fashion, not add more and more to bog the game down.

"Little special character rules" are not hard to keep track of. To use an example that almost everyone can relate to, how hard is it to remember that all your melta and flamer weapons are twin-linked and that all your thunder hammers are master-crafted if Vulkan is in the army?

Answer: Not very hard.

All in all, I'd have to say that I'm really not at all a fan of the proposed ideas.
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post #6 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 12:21 AM
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The idea of a "Competition" version and a "casual" version of the games has come up before. It isn't a bad idea, per se, but it won't ever happen really. It would split GWs IP, make the game more complex for beginners (as you have 2 versions to choose between! Two lots of rules to learn.), and they'd have to put out two complete versions of the rules for not much gain. Lots of downsides really.

They should try to balance the rules between armies and between units a bit more though. If there were less comparitively bad choices, then it would be easier to just play what you like the look of, without reference to how well it performs on the battlefield. If only they would...

Personally, if they rewrote the rules, I wish they'd make special rules for units easier to reference. There are some units where you have to go though 4 pages of a codex to actually find out their full rules (Psychic power rules, special rules page, equipment page, their own page, and maybe a the equipment page will reference another units page for it's rules!). Now, I know the rules extremely well, but I've seen this bog down newer players quite a lot before. Privateer press does well with including it's Stat cards with every model/unit sold, which gives all the stats and special rules for that model, and which you can easily keep with you at all times. GWs system is far more customisable, so that probably wouldn't work, but you could still put a rules summary sheet in with all the relevant special rules for the unit in one place in the codex. It would be handy.

So yeah, 40k doesn't need to be rewritten badly, but some streamlining, and some balancing between forces, would help when they do.

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post #7 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Drake View Post
That's all we need, yet another way to divide the hobby into secular groups.
Gotta say it always has been. There are always gamers more focussed on winning then having a laugh, just like there are always people who want to paint a model over spending hours on their army list. i've never been a seriously competative player but i still came up with tounament builds for 3rd and 4th ed. I wouldn't even try to build a competative army now, i feel it would just be one of the cut outs that seem to be run in this edition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Drake View Post
What game are you playing? Seriously, what? You're going to have to expand on this because I have no idea how hobbyists are getting screwed by the new rules.
I'm assuming this relates to the nerfing of a lot of the old special rules. The imperial guard traits, the chaos deamonic gifts, the index astartes specialist chapter rules. All of these added layers to the game which made each encounter interesting. It was never enough to know you were fighting marines cause they could be anything fromflesh tearers to imperial fists and all had their own special niches. I still feel that the 5th ed rules have taken a big chunk of this flavour which is why my group still plays a big chunk of the old rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Drake View Post
Dude, suck it up. Meta-gaming is part of how these things work. Any game that is constantly changing and evolving has a meta - it's just the way of things.
Harsh much?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Drake View Post
The rest of your post is pretty much one giant contradiction. You're saying you want a game that plays faster and simpler, yet has complex rules like designing your own vehicles and monsters (and probably characters too)? It doesn't work like that. If you want the game to play fast and smooth, you want to minimize the number of rules there are to remember and write them in an extremely clear fashion, not add more and more to bog the game down.

"Little special character rules" are not hard to keep track of. To use an example that almost everyone can relate to, how hard is it to remember that all your melta and flamer weapons are twin-linked and that all your thunder hammers are master-crafted if Vulkan is in the army?

Answer: Not very hard.

All in all, I'd have to say that I'm really not at all a fan of the proposed ideas.
I'll agree that the new rules streamline things pretty well but can't help but feel we're approaching the limit of streamlining without compromising creativity.
I believe that what the op was trying to suggest was not to get rid of the current ed of rules, but to republish or rewrite the older edition rules which had so much extra toppings on that you couldn't fit the whole thing in your mouth without cutting it into potions.
this way fans of the 5th ed rules could happily carry on playing as they are now and tournies etc could be played with the 5th ed rules. Us storyline gamers who miss playing with the crazy overbalanced armies would have a 5th ed S-type (storyline edition) that was horribley broken but in which a squad of space marines could have any number of rules depending on their chapter.

Clearly you are a fan of the new rules or you wouldn't have argued so angri...passionately against the idea. The point remains that there are still oldschool gamers who strongly dislike the new rules. I for one could be happy playing version 4 rules but as all of the new codexes are produced in the 5th ed format and are less and less compatible with the old stuff it makes it increasingly difficult incorperate new and old together.

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post #8 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 12:45 AM
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Sorry to double post but what if these overpowered rules were marketed in a similar way to apocalypse and planetfall. An expansion rather then a full rules set, including a lot of older rules that were phased out this edition and relevent modifications to make them more balanced. Call it warhammer 40k veteran units. Include rules which can be added to existing codexes to change how they play, include the vdr rules etc. Effectively you wouldn't need a whole new rulebook and codex, just a list of things you could add by using this expansion.

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post #9 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 01:05 AM
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That would be something I would like to see; something that allows you to create imensly characterful units. Sure Imperial Guard veteran squads are cool, but I want a sniper that can no-scope baddies on the run; relentless please. I want a guy duel weilding bolt pistols!

I think having something like this, allowing you to create eilite squads would be a great expansion, and I'm not talking about Kill Team; I'm talking about an Army of Veterans; survivors of a decade long siege, feral worlders on a post apocolyptic wasteland. stuff like that.

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post #10 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 01:09 AM
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Like the others have said play with your friends, that way you can do what ever you want, and thousands of people play 40k with homebrew rules.

If you want anything more than that then you’re being delusional that ranting about it here @ heresy will change anything. GW does not really care what we say here, and so any discussion along the lines of "40k should be like insert dumb idea " is a waste of time and breath.
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