Have orks lost their fun side?

[humakt]

I recently went to a local tournament. We played 2 1250 point games and 2 1750 point games. I have been going to this tournament for several years and its always a good laugh. That is until this year, when things were not as much fun as normal. Dont get me wrong, I had a good time, just not a great time. Why?

Well its probably that I faced 3 Ork armies, and 1 Eldar army.

The Eldar force was a 3 prism tank army and I was 'skimmered' to destruction. I accept this as a fault with V4 verses the Eldar codexs, and see this being resolved in the V5 rules. It was a good game, but I just lost too much early on.

But orks on the other hand. They were not a fun army to face. Dont get me wrong I like hord armies, but only one of the armies I faced had any vehicals at all, and these were killer kans, because they were so cheap. I didnt see any of the units you would consider characterful. Squigg attack gun or whatever its called, none. Zapp guns, none. Artillery pieces manned by grots? There was 1, but only because he had some points spare. I faced over 100 models in each game, and most of these had more firepower than an equivelant guard army. And most of this firepower comes from assault weapons.

Are orks fun to play against? Is there any reason to allow orks such ridiculous ammounts of balistic weapons? Why have they allowed lootas and tank hunters to take such a stupid amount of high powered weapons that no other army could field? I mean how many other armies can have a squad with at least 15 autocannon shots in?

I know people will say, its because it a V5 army, but I dont see anything in V5 making this army less powerful, and I cant see many people taking anything but orks if they want to win at GT's in the next years.

This is not a rant, more an opening for a debate about orkyness and if it may push the balance of the game towards hords and hords of greenskins.

[Triumph Of Man]

Depends what you use really.

45 Lootas isn't that much fun IMO, but running over stuff with 4 Battlewagons and their respective deffrollas gives me kicks.

[Trigger]

I think this has less to do with the new list and more to do with force selection. If you play in a tournament not many people go for character ( although I do) People expect vehicles and so these players have gone with massive horde that has too many models to kill and extreme dakka on the assault. Its what I would expect from a tourny army.

[Regwon]

its amusing to see the guy with 45 lootas cry when you turn up with 6 land raiders.

orks are pretty good at the moment. they have loads of great very cheap stuff that their supposed downside of next to no armour doesnt really make up for. theyre not unbeatable though. enough firepower will kill them, but a few 6 man las/plas squads isnt really enough. nidzilla have a pretty easy time with them as do necrons and certain dual-lash chaos builds if you play them well. they are good but far from unbeatable. if you want to kill them in 5th, bring a monolith, they have almost no way to kill that thing.

fun-wise, i always find it amusing to play against orks. whatever happens in the game i come away with a smile on my face. that may be the people that currently play orks and that may change as orks become more competitive in 5th, but at the moment its good.

[Kronus]

Originally Posted by Trigger

Its what I would expect from a tourny army.

I have to agree. I know some people like to bring a fluffy list to a tourny but serious players go to win and will bring out whatever cheese they have on their shelves so to speak to win. A big tourny will normally be jam packed, with stealer lists, nidzilla, double LoS, flying circus, 3 prism and 3 HH lists. If the Ork player thinks a boring horde with 45 lootas is the most competitive list he can field then I don't see whats wrong with it. You can say as much or more about a shed load of other lists.

Friendly games are diff, I have a horde, shooty, kan, biker, cult of speed and battlewagon list and swap between them frequently for fun. I take lobbas frequntly and a SAG or a weirdboy almost every game for kicks. But when 5th hits and the tourneys approach I will be sure as hell (if the rules are as predicted) fielding 180 orcs in 2000pts and a grot screen in any less. Can you really blame me?

[njfed]

Wait...let me get this straight. You are complaining because someone made a horde army from a horde army? My son's Tyranid list beat an ork army like you describe with no problem. Oh, he uses only three MCs.

First, I see the new Orks and Daemons as a way to bring balance to your force. (Did I just say that?) You have to have an army that can take all comers. My son's list has no problem with las-plas. Fifth will have an impact on Orks. The missions and objectives will change the way the game is played.

Second, Orks are still fun to play and fight against. The problem is many people try too hard to avaid the fun parts of an ork army. Shock attack gun, wierd boys and rambling wrecks all add to the flavor of the ork experience.

Have fun and embrace change. You don't want to fall into a runt do you? (Sorry, bad pun)

[humakt]

I've been to lots of GT's and know what to expect. And Im not complaining about the way the players used the lists that were avialable. Maybe my pont is that ork codex make them far stronger than other horde armies. The low BS is made up for easily by the number of shots, and the good str of the weapon, means pleanty of saved needed by MEQ. They then have pretty good close combat which is to be expected and sheer weight of numbers with a charge gives and impressive bucket of dice.

As far as tournaments go, I'm guessing people will need to take 6 troop slots with lots of anti infantry style weapons (Heavy bolter/flamer) and then a few anti armour units?

And landraiders die very quickly if hit by tank hammers.

[Alexander_67]

Orks are so powerful because 1/6 of the time they explode themselves. Its what has always happened and thats what makes their army characterful. In a tourney however you can expect to see people attempt to dodge that eventuality by taking the more reliable of stuff and larger groups of the things that may kill themselves so if they lose one it doesnt matter.

The problem is many people try too hard to evade the fun parts of an ork army. Shock attack gun, wierd boys and rambling wrecks all add to the flavor of the ork experience.

Basically this happens. No one wants an army they cant depend on in a tournament. It may suck the fun out of the orks but thats the harsh truth of it.

I will say its not a laugh to turn up and see the other side of the board green and realise your antitank just became redundant. I mean we spend lots of points on that stuff.

First, I see the new Orks and Daemons as a way to bring balance to your force.

They bring balance to your force becuase they themselves have no balance. Insightful. +rep

[ghazghkull-killyork]

orks not fun? pha killing things with shoota, bashing stuff with guns and electrifiying other stuff with the occasional chance of doing all of that on the poor orks themselves and the ability to run 18" in one turn absouletley great!!!!!!

[Galahad]

Think about it this way:
No well designed tourney list is meant to be fun to play against. Everyone else at the place is bringing their hardest, most vicious, pain in the ass lists.

If you're saddled with an army that has a weak selection to begin with then there's not much you can do to make a killer list, so there's nothing stopping you from taking odd units.

Now that Orks can actually put up a fight and design good, strong lists, there's more incentive to design a strong list. Whether that list contains 'fun' units, is pretty damned subjective, really.

you may think shokk attack guns are fun, others don't. I think lootas are fun (because of their wacky kit-bashed guns, they encourage a lot of customizing and scratch-building), but people don't like to face them because they're too effective.

If I field an army of heavily (and comically) converted and customized ork models, that just happens to contain the hardest, strongest, most points-effective choices, am I taking the fun out of the army, or am I having a blast playing an army that I had a ton of fun designing?

Lootas are fun, battle wagons (and especially deff rollas) are fun...but they're not fun to face.

I don't think the orks have lost their fun side...I just think people are having less fun *facing* orks, because orks are much harder to beat than they used to be. That's the core of it