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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-17, 08:07 AM Thread Starter
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CSM vs Nurgle

I play Night Lords and fight against a friend who plays Death Guard.

Deathguard did really well in the 'will my army get buffed' traitor legions game. Night Lords...not so much. Especially against Death Guard.


Night Lords cause fear - Death Guard Fearless
Night Lords get Stealth - Death Guard get stealth at 18"+
Death Guard get the mark of nurgle (so the good T5 marines, Oblits termies etc) - Night Lords don't.
Night Lords DP gets stealth - Nurgle DP gets shrouded


Add in re-rolls of FNP vs the ability to be swept in cc :/


I'd like to be competitive in a game - I'm not fussed about actually winning, I'd just like to enjoy the game and have a chance of winning.
I don't want to proxy my Night Lords as a different csm faction if I can help it. I don't want to use one of my other armies as this just reverses the problem - My Eldar will ruin Deathguard (I can just bring a shed load of d-weapons) and my Wolves can bring lots of ST10 thunderhammers.


So what can Night Lords do against Death Guard?
What can other CSM do to fight Death Guard?

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Last edited by Gret79; 02-27-17 at 08:09 AM.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-17, 09:55 AM
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What kind of build is your Night Lords list? Are you infantry heavy? Vehicles?


My bet would be focusing on maximizing the amount of wounds you can throw their way, even if they have a good save and feel no pain, make them roll enough dice and they'll fail some. I don't know a great deal about the points differences, but you should be able to outnumber him easily enough. Since you can't really spam S10 attacks with a NL list this is your next best bet.

If you haven't yet, running a few squads of warp talons might help. The problem will be getting them up close but they'll go through their saves and force them to rely on FNP rolls to stay alive.


If you're okay with vehicles, toss in a vindicator. It'll hurt them hard and be a pain for them to get rid of.


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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-17, 03:17 PM
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well, you could try spamming chaff... cultists as main line, supported by Str10 dealers. Melee Defilers, maulerfiends and maybe helbrutes (deepstriking formation), support with vindicators and pray the gods.
So my take would be:
-Night lords Murder Talon- 1850 pts
Raptor talon:
Lord, fist, sigils, sphere of curze (reroll 1s run, hit & wound) 135
5 raptors, 2 meltaguns, powermaul 125
5 raptors, 2 meltaguns, powermaul 125
5 raptors, 2 meltaguns, powermaul 125
(510)

Lost & Damned
Dark apostle (105)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
(455)

helforged warpack
1 Warpsmith (110)
5 Maulerfiends (625)
(735)

Spawns
5 single spawns
(150)

Total= 1850

Basically 5 maulerfiends will rush the opponent while cultists follows. raptors help popping light vehicles and take objectives and help with massed assault against hordes and blobs that could tarpit the maulers. single spawns are used as objective grabbers and should assault en masse to help maulerfiends, also eating snapshots during assault.
GLORY TO CHAOS!!

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-17, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gret79 View Post
So what can Night Lords do against Death Guard?
Simple, negate what strengths or bonus's you can. Death Guard armies get 'stealth' at 18"+? Get to short range faster than they can escape it.

Your Night Lords, raptors are troops for you; so your required squads, if using a CAD, can deep strike and negate the Death Guard 'stealth.' Use warp talons, negating armour saves makes it harder for plague marines to survive.

Helldrakes are going to be your friend, due to their speed and the ability of baleflamers to ignore the armour of plague marines.

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Originally Posted by Gret79 View Post
Death Guard get the mark of nurgle (so the good T5 marines, Oblits termies etc) - Night Lords don't.
Death Guard units that are not Typhus or plague marines also lower their initiative, unless I am mistaken here.

So a portion of their units will strike after your units in close combat, where you can do more damage with the likes of your HQ, raptors, chosen, terminators, and warp talons.

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Originally Posted by Gret79 View Post
Add in re-rolls of FNP vs the ability to be swept in cc :/
Your playing a fast, elite army that can bring a lot of AP3 to bear in close combat. Your army has the ability to negate several of your enemies resilience buffs (the ranged shrouded and the natural resilience of power armour.)

Your opponent is a reslient, elite army that can take a lot of ranged punishment but is at a disadvantage in close combat. They are slower, have fewer attacks, and rely on a combination of power armour and feel no pain to negate the majority of the damage coming their way.


So what can/should you do? Focus on the Night Lord strengths that are applicable in this situation. That means Close combat, making heavier use of raptors, especially armed with meltaguns and plasmaguns, using warp talons and helldrakes.

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-28-17, 08:01 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpion5 View Post
What kind of build is your Night Lords list? Are you infantry heavy? Vehicles?


My bet would be focusing on maximizing the amount of wounds you can throw their way, even if they have a good save and feel no pain, make them roll enough dice and they'll fail some. I don't know a great deal about the points differences, but you should be able to outnumber him easily enough. Since you can't really spam S10 attacks with a NL list this is your next best bet.

If you haven't yet, running a few squads of warp talons might help. The problem will be getting them up close but they'll go through their saves and force them to rely on FNP rolls to stay alive.


If you're okay with vehicles, toss in a vindicator. It'll hurt them hard and be a pain for them to get rid of.

I can do 2 x 5 warp talon squads. I don't have any usable vindicators, but I do have a decimator. He brings strength some 10. I like that idea, thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by neferhet View Post
well, you could try spamming chaff... cultists as main line, supported by Str10 dealers. Melee Defilers, maulerfiends and maybe helbrutes (deepstriking formation), support with vindicators and pray the gods.
So my take would be:
-Night lords Murder Talon- 1850 pts
Raptor talon:
Lord, fist, sigils, sphere of curze (reroll 1s run, hit & wound) 135
5 raptors, 2 meltaguns, powermaul 125
5 raptors, 2 meltaguns, powermaul 125
5 raptors, 2 meltaguns, powermaul 125
(510)

Lost & Damned
Dark apostle (105)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
10 cultists (50)
(455)

helforged warpack
1 Warpsmith (110)
5 Maulerfiends (625)
(735)

Spawns
5 single spawns
(150)

Total= 1850

Basically 5 maulerfiends will rush the opponent while cultists follows. raptors help popping light vehicles and take objectives and help with massed assault against hordes and blobs that could tarpit the maulers. single spawns are used as objective grabbers and should assault en masse to help maulerfiends, also eating snapshots during assault.
GLORY TO CHAOS!!
Damn, that's a lot of maulerfiends :D
I only own one but I can do a Murder Talon. And I have enough raptors to take as troops to take a cad and go MSU. I have 70 unpainted cultists to paint at some point, once they're done I'll give this a try


Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
Simple, negate what strengths or bonus's you can. Death Guard armies get 'stealth' at 18"+? Get to short range faster than they can escape it.

Your Night Lords, raptors are troops for you; so your required squads, if using a CAD, can deep strike and negate the Death Guard 'stealth.' Use warp talons, negating armour saves makes it harder for plague marines to survive.

Helldrakes are going to be your friend, due to their speed and the ability of baleflamers to ignore the armour of plague marines.


Death Guard units that are not Typhus or plague marines also lower their initiative, unless I am mistaken here.

So a portion of their units will strike after your units in close combat, where you can do more damage with the likes of your HQ, raptors, chosen, terminators, and warp talons.


Your playing a fast, elite army that can bring a lot of AP3 to bear in close combat. Your army has the ability to negate several of your enemies resilience buffs (the ranged shrouded and the natural resilience of power armour.)

Your opponent is a reslient, elite army that can take a lot of ranged punishment but is at a disadvantage in close combat. They are slower, have fewer attacks, and rely on a combination of power armour and feel no pain to negate the majority of the damage coming their way.


So what can/should you do? Focus on the Night Lord strengths that are applicable in this situation. That means Close combat, making heavier use of raptors, especially armed with meltaguns and plasmaguns, using warp talons and helldrakes.
I took a pair of heldrakes in the last game. Some relentless havocs said ouch. Then the heldrakes got shot down. Using Deamonforge, I managed to kill 5 men from a havoc squad. But then I rolled ok and my opponent was having one of those 'I got 5+FNP re-rolling 1's, so every time I roll a 1 it turns into a 5 days' :D


Thanks guys


You've definitely given me a lot to think about

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Last edited by Gret79; 02-28-17 at 08:04 AM.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-28-17, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gret79 View Post



And I have enough raptors to take as troops to take a cad and go MSU.



I honestly would never take raptors in a cad if i am going to make a murder talon, due to the extreme bonus of being able to deepstrike and assault. it's too good a bonus to skip (those relentless havocs? yeah, they will spend the next three turns in melee). Also, free jump pack for the lord!YAY!

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The calls of Slaneesh stir so deeply within me, as if I was birthed from the very essence of it. For my ambition to infinitely ascend above all is never ending, like fire within it burns me to ever cindering ash. Lord of light and ascension is who I am, realities burn to ash at my very passing. My luminescence is unparalleled for I am luminosity itself, all light is but a shadow of my silhouette
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-28-17, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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I meant I can do both at once
So 2 x 5 warp talons and a squad of raptors with Melta as the murder Talon and then maybe another 2 squads of raptors with obsec to get some objectives.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-02-17, 01:25 PM
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I went up against a death guard list a couple of weeks ago with my night lords, it was a hard battle, but I won game. I think the key is ap3 and characters. I had 2 lords and 3 sorcerers. I tied his units up in combat from turn 2 with raptor squads and then the characters got to work. I think my list is over on the CSM lists threads. Having a warband hold things down turn 1 and then assault with raptors, talons, bikes and a bunch of characters turn 2 did the tick for me.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-02-17, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
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I think that'll be the way I go


My next list is going to have 2 lords (1 jump pack, 1 bike), a sorcerer on a bike and a daemon prince. That alongside a murder talon (2 x 5 warp talons, 5 x raptors) a heldrake squadron and a cad with more raptors, 2 squads of bikes and a decimator should be a good start (the game will be 2500pts)


Will post a list up soon.

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-02-17, 03:49 PM
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I have been tempted by a tzeench prince with the relic armour, but I just can't justify the nigh 300 points he costs. When you can get 2 lvl2 sorcerer for 50 less.
Personally I think the warband is a better option than a cad, the objective secured on everything from characters to bikes for me makes it to good to pass.
At those points I would have both a cad for some forgeworld and a warband with a full raptor talon.
Good luck with your list writing.
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