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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-21-13, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Many thoughts upon a world for gamers.

by that I mean MMO's, which tend to be built upon large worlds that continuously expand, and grow, or should. Every company that has built them so far has given the same excuses as to why they are basically charging us to make their older works obsolete and worthless.

I am currently working on an MMO idea, and I was hoping that others would have opinions upon the ideas I have. But before I get into the Nitty Gritty stuff I want to change. we need to look at current MMO's. What have they done right? what could be done better? what was a good idea but done wrong in some mmos? etc. These are the questions I am asking of all of you to answer before you continue to read to my thoughts on these matters. simply because Id rather you all formed your own opinions on this before reading mine.

^- read above if you have not -^

Now that you have thought about your own opinions on the matters above. Ill post what i think has been done wrong in most MMOs as of late. I will not be adding in my ideas for solutions yet, as once again, I want people to continue to form their own opinions. weather they agree or disagree with me, their reasons for thinking that way, etc. maybe they can see where I am getting at with my ideas.

Leveling: Leveling has become a very nasty stopgap that really has little meaning anymore in the world of MMOs, either you are forced to rigorously grind your way up to the high ends, only to be dissapointed as the designers decided to make the leveling first but couldnt finish the end game, due to making the leveling too easy to cater to the casual, or made it too much of a difficult step ladder for the casual to even bother trying to get to the end game. Thus it truly is just a cash grab system meant to devalue older content in place of the new. and it really is a very outdated design that has been taken WAY past its basic function.

Classes: Another outdated mechanic, designed for a much smaller scale of game where the player is playing the select few to feel like a hero. Rather then being one in the masses. It is also a mechanic to design "gear" easier to classes. if a character is forced to wear heavy armor, and use a shield, its easier to design gear to fit him in a gear heavy game. Thus, it actually removes more choice from the game, especially due to more recent MMOs attempting to remove classes by homogenizing all roles into one.

Gear: Ever remember back in the day when finding a secret character unlock code was something to be proud of? ever remember when that epic gear that actually did something other then give armor was a rarity? Since games like WoW made loot the center of the MMO world, with massive stat bonuses and heavily relying on gear based drops. the days of old when you wore heavy plate to protect yourself, not because your class was made to wear it. (another neg to classes)

"Unique" battle resource: by this I mean games that have Rage, Stamina, Mana, Runes, Discipline, Might, etc all these "unique" types of resource for the player to eat through while casting their abilities, is completely unneeded. Especially once "classes" are removed.

anything you guys can think of as a negative in MMOs now a days? please, give me your thoughts and opinions. dont be quiet with nothing to say, speak up.
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-21-13, 09:41 PM
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The biggest negative I can think of are rules, things like no greifing, stealing or killing players. To me they detract an important aspect of the game. Which is learning how to protect your things and yourself and thinking about your actions.
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-21-13, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Werewolf_Arngeirr View Post
by that I mean MMO's, which tend to be built upon large worlds that continuously expand, and grow, or should. Every company that has built them so far has given the same excuses as to why they are basically charging us to make their older works obsolete and worthless.

I am currently working on an MMO idea, and I was hoping that others would have opinions upon the ideas I have. But before I get into the Nitty Gritty stuff I want to change. we need to look at current MMO's. What have they done right? what could be done better? what was a good idea but done wrong in some mmos? etc. These are the questions I am asking of all of you to answer before you continue to read to my thoughts on these matters. simply because Id rather you all formed your own opinions on this before reading mine.

^- read above if you have not -^

Now that you have thought about your own opinions on the matters above. Ill post what i think has been done wrong in most MMOs as of late. I will not be adding in my ideas for solutions yet, as once again, I want people to continue to form their own opinions. weather they agree or disagree with me, their reasons for thinking that way, etc. maybe they can see where I am getting at with my ideas.

Leveling: Leveling has become a very nasty stopgap that really has little meaning anymore in the world of MMOs, either you are forced to rigorously grind your way up to the high ends, only to be dissapointed as the designers decided to make the leveling first but couldnt finish the end game, due to making the leveling too easy to cater to the casual, or made it too much of a difficult step ladder for the casual to even bother trying to get to the end game. Thus it truly is just a cash grab system meant to devalue older content in place of the new. and it really is a very outdated design that has been taken WAY past its basic function.
When Everquest came out, that was the hardest to level in. You seriously had to grind and grind and grind just to get a level. And people loved it. It made hitting a level that much better and when you leveled you "yelled" "DING" and EVERYONE would congratulate you. Yes, there will always be the people who hate the grind and there will always be people who hate it easy. EQ did something right, since it lasted so long (it's still going). WoW did something right because it's still going. If you ask people who quit WoW (and even a lot who are still playing), they will say that it's boring. You level up so fast, do the endgame stuff over and over, and there is nothing else to do. EQ, people didn't get bored because there were so many places to go and things to do and secrets hidden every where.
Classes: Another outdated mechanic, designed for a much smaller scale of game where the player is playing the select few to feel like a hero. Rather then being one in the masses. It is also a mechanic to design "gear" easier to classes. if a character is forced to wear heavy armor, and use a shield, its easier to design gear to fit him in a gear heavy game. Thus, it actually removes more choice from the game, especially due to more recent MMOs attempting to remove classes by homogenizing all roles into one.
If you take away classes, then you have no diversity. People will find the "ultimate" perks to give their character and they will be all the same. Do you really want 10,000 identical paladins running around? That would be a huge mistake.
Gear: Ever remember back in the day when finding a secret character unlock code was something to be proud of? ever remember when that epic gear that actually did something other then give armor was a rarity? Since games like WoW made loot the center of the MMO world, with massive stat bonuses and heavily relying on gear based drops. the days of old when you wore heavy plate to protect yourself, not because your class was made to wear it. (another neg to classes)
Loot should be a hard earned thing that makes some part of your character better. But it should NOT be something that makes you have a serious advantage over someone the same level as you. Skill in playing your character should be the biggest factor, not "I have the end all, be all sword of god slaying!"
"Unique" battle resource: by this I mean games that have Rage, Stamina, Mana, Runes, Discipline, Might, etc all these "unique" types of resource for the player to eat through while casting their abilities, is completely unneeded. Especially once "classes" are removed.
If you take all of that out, then what's the point of character managment? If you can just cast fireball over and over an infinite amount of times, there is zero skill there. Same with a warrior who can do the same power move an infinite amount of times. Taking these away would, in my opinion, be a huge mistake. An MMO should not be "easy mode". It should be something that you need skill to play, but not be impossible for the newer player.

anything you guys can think of as a negative in MMOs now a days? please, give me your thoughts and opinions. dont be quiet with nothing to say, speak up.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-21-13, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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my idea is designed more towards a PVP friendly competitive game as it is, the extended "world rules" ive been writing lately (and will likely share with you all at a later date) in which I have ideas to adress the issues I have listed above while creating a compelling game that could entertain people for well over a year in just basic content.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-21-13, 10:26 PM
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That's why I liked Runescape...well old rune scape, You got to just be every class but since robes, leather and mails have no bonuses wearing plate was really the only way to have any kind of defense. I don't know if that's been fixed in the past few years. Also losing items when you die kinda sucked.

MMOs today have everything easy to get because so many have quit playing because it was too hard or took too long, but all that does is take away from the thrill of achieving something great.

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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-21-13, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
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@ loki: some misunderstandings there, but I dont blame you. as I did not post solutions that I was thinking.

But this is the kind of thing I was hoping someone would bring up about what I said.

So first off, leveling, and in particular, the thoughts of ever quest. i agree that everquest made leveling hard, and made it actually something of an accomplishment. but with how the world is right now, even in the MMO universe, we cant have the requirement of playing for 2 months played time before we reach the "end game" the section of the game we want to play in. Leveling is used as an excuse to force people to explore the world, and leveling is an outdated system not optimal for an MMO if you want to truly keep peoples attentions like the days of old but keeping all the new toys in. I do have a sort of "advancement" idea that will take the place of traditional leveling. more on that later when I post my full world rules.

Classes, a few things we missed the beat on eachothers thoughts here, though I do see what your saying, my words were poorly written as my actual idea stayed in the shadows of your mind, so you could not see the truth I see. Most games are trying to remove classes right now, to homogenize classes into one. I think its going in the wrong direction, and rather then pulling away from the trinity by giving everyone access to everything, that the trinity should be expanded, 5 roles. you pick 2 of the 5 roles, thats your "class" but keeping with the idea of choice matters, your not limited to the ideas of a "class" where you will be a paladin, which is a paladin, which is a paladin, no matter the talent choices you make. Where this way, your choices matter. More on this aswell in my full world rules.

Loot: my thoughts exactly, Loot has become too manditory in the current MMO phases. as such, I would almost eliminate Loot, or make loot far closer to old DnD loot (Armor +1 being a magical item, low stats, no bonuses to stats on gear, etc, penalties to speed and maneuverability are the cost of wearing heavier gear. being more important when choosing armor then what stats it has on it) maybe give armor itsself a larger numerical scale to allow for rarer materials to make higher quality armor, etc. Make "gear" more of the realm of the crafters, give them something to strive for and build, while some are off killing enemies, others are off collecting rare materials to craft more armors for the never ending hordes. Add in master crafting procs and you can see quality wares that have high stats of armor being sold for higher prices then lower quality gear.

mis communication on the Resources bit. I did not mean remove them entirely, I meant that the idea of having so many unique resources is just unwieldy, and each character has a whole differnt set of rules they are playing under then everyone else. now I get trying to diversify classes. but once again, the theme here is putting a bandaid on a festering wound does not clear the infection caused from its inception.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki1416 View Post
If you take away classes, then you have no diversity. People will find the "ultimate" perks to give their character and they will be all the same. Do you really want 10,000 identical paladins running around? That would be a huge mistake.
In short? Complete and utter bullshit. Take Eve Online, for instance. If you give people a varied enough world, people will always specialize and do whatever they feel like, instead of playing to some kind of 'meta' or 'must-have' archetype. Prime example? My main character is fully skilled and equipped to fly supercapital ships, some of the biggest and meanest bastards in the game. However, despite their power, they are a liability and need a LOT of support.

My point, though? I can fly some of the most deadly and dangerous ships in Eve Online, but I am rarely out of something larger than a Frigate, the smallest, fastest and 'weakest' armed ship class in the game. Why? It's my preferred playstyle, and with the right thought process in using them, every bit as deadly, if not moreso.

As a whole, Werewolf, I think what you're talking about here could do VERY well from taking a lot of cues from Eve and how open and fluid it is. Instead of a class system or Eve's purely time-based skill system, for example? The experience pool system could work. Starting at a kind of central point from one of several archetypes, and spending points accrued to specialize on a kind of Final Fantasy Licence Grid style.

While not an MMO in the strictest sense, I'd strongly suggest checking out Path of Exile for this kind of system. While you start with archetypes of classes, you can choose to spend your skillpoints to grow the way you want. For example, I have a 'Witch' character (Low strength, low agility, high intelligence to start with) who wears armour and uses a two-handed sword along with ice spells. Why? Because it's possible and my personal style, and she can be personalized into that kind of path if chosen.


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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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In short? Complete and utter bullshit. Take Eve Online, for instance. If you give people a varied enough world, people will always specialize and do whatever they feel like, instead of playing to some kind of 'meta' or 'must-have' archetype. Prime example? My main character is fully skilled and equipped to fly supercapital ships, some of the biggest and meanest bastards in the game. However, despite their power, they are a liability and need a LOT of support.

My point, though? I can fly some of the most deadly and dangerous ships in Eve Online, but I am rarely out of something larger than a Frigate, the smallest, fastest and 'weakest' armed ship class in the game. Why? It's my preferred playstyle, and with the right thought process in using them, every bit as deadly, if not moreso.

As a whole, Werewolf, I think what you're talking about here could do VERY well from taking a lot of cues from Eve and how open and fluid it is.
Eve has a lot of ups to it, but it has a lot of negatives aswell, I am still compiling what I call the World Rules. think about reality, we have our "laws" that we have tried to discern how gravity works, how time works, what do we need in our fundamentals to survive in our world, etc. call it, our understanding of the universe. Weather its by design or just the way things are, our world has certain rules that we follow, due to how we perceive it. I want to build a world with rules, with consequences for your actions, the fluidity of a variable creature system, would be vastly superior to an eco system then the static designs programmers use now, and is it that hard to design a system that uses one of the million of RNG systems in the MMO universe to spawn the eco system on a set of variables designed by the players by how active they are in an area?

Eve does a good job at giving people options to play in different ships, because its that kind of game, its designed to give people the option of playing a massive ship that can take planets out, but needs support or it would get overwhelmed, its a massive target.

To give you Insights into my mind about the situation for classes to be removed. I want to give people the chance to play a character how they want, and through that I have been working on a system I call the role system. as most of you know, the Trinity in MMOs, Healer tank DPS, is outdated and flawed. especially with how the current Meta of the games are working. new games are attempting to remove classes all together, but also remove the Trinity all together by letting everyone have the ability to do... basically everything. and I feel that its just gone out of control in the wrong direction. The Role System simplifies the character creation while diversifying each character to be unique unto their own. 5 Roles each with something unique to bring to the table. Tank, Healer, Support, Scout, Assault. Give Each Role "specialization trees", then think of the system being similar to Rift. Each Role is given base abilities, and each weapon choice gives certain attack choices upon a more ARPG system (click to attack styles similar to WotR/WotV or the ES series) then your specialization trees give you more advanced abilities, shift or change your base abilities to be more suited to what your "specialization" is. Add to all that, I would have people choose 2 of the roles for their character, and 3 specialization trees from within the two roles. Your two roles can never be changed on the character, consider that your "class". From there the specialization trees would be able to be so diversified, you could have someone healing with lighting, or bandages. you could have a tank, using his abilities with a 2h, or a shield, or minions, or magic. the possibilties would only be limited to the over arching rules of the game.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Werewolf_Arngeirr View Post
anything you guys can think of as a negative in MMOs now a days? please, give me your thoughts and opinions. dont be quiet with nothing to say, speak up.
WoW success broke MMO as genre - all developers started to copy it, and what even more terrifying - they trying to do it fast - remember that "raw" warhammer online, or SWTOR (both under EA). MMO's ain't so special and new anymore - games like Lol\dota\WoT\Minecraft stepped forward - you can still play social-interacted game, without spending days for farm and raids.
How many developers tried to copy WoW - they want masses and createcasual games, but there is a question for them - do masses want you? - they and they're purses can play WoW(or other game), where they have guilds and friends and with what they are familiar and feel comfort playing it.
So what's bad about MMO today? - copies, there's nothing unique and interesting - same Dragons, raids and farm.




What? Boo is outraged! See his fury! It's small, so look close. Trust me, it's there.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
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WoW success broke MMO as genre - all developers started to copy it, and what even more terrifying - they trying to do it fast - remember that "raw" warhammer online, or SWTOR (both under EA). MMO's ain't so special and new anymore - games like Lol\dota\WoT\Minecraft stepped forward - you can still play social-interacted game, without spending days for farm and raids.
How many developers tried to copy WoW - they want masses and createcasual games, but there is a question for them - do masses want you? - they and they're purses can play WoW(or other game), where they have guilds and friends and with what they are familiar and feel comfort playing it.
So what's bad about MMO today? - copies, there's nothing unique and interesting - same Dragons, raids and farm.
my thoughts are similar to yours, nothing unique, nothing different about an MMO that does not evolve. if you read my earlier thoughts you can see im definitely aiming to make something different then the current status quo.
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