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post #41 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-16-12, 08:41 AM
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Let's not forget the fucking epic final 'mission'. That alone made the game for me and was an awesome little bit of story/gameplay meshing.
The final mission was one of the best endings a game could possibly have had. I thought it was epic, and have enjoyed the living shit out of it. Lots of fun to get together with a bunch of people in Legendary and see how long you are capable of staying alive.

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Technically you did have shields though, because the Rookie's stamina worked the same way. I was a little disappointed that they didn't focus on the stealthy aspect of the game more.
During the day time missions I think I killed and blew up more things than during the entire Halo 3 campaign, which sort of annoyed me. Why do you need Spartans when a squad of ODST:s can do the exact same job for 1/1000000 of the price? The game really could have done with some more stealth style gameplay though. I mean, you have fucking silenced weapons, so why not start of by taking advantage of that?

Running around in the streets at night was fun at times though. Nothing especially memorable about it, but finding things like "Remember Reach" scratched onto walls and searching for the audio logs was entertaining.

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post #42 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-16-12, 06:22 PM
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Are the Spartan-IIs and Spartan-IIIs fundamentally broken as human beings as a result of their training? And were they so successful because they were these children that had been kidnapped and broken down into killing-machines?
It would make sense to me.

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Without a normal childhood in which a child can explore and experience certain aspects of life, such as socialization, you end up with a human being who thinks differently than others, which some define as broken.

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post #43 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-16-12, 09:34 PM
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Actually no. Construct is a generic term that can encompass any piece of technology. In the first Halo Guilty Spark refers to Cortana as a construct.



Again no. I can tell already that if I do post that you'll just ranting and this Halo thread will turn into Star Wars thread so I'm not going to.



A bunch of whips? Were you expecting them to have thousands and thousands of Grunts, Jackals and Elites storming down on you for most of the game? Cause I gotta tell outside of cutscenes none of the current platforms could support something like that. Truthfully I found Halo Reach to be the only game in the series where I felt that the Covenant were unstoppable. Halo 1 the Covenant felt like the initial enemy before the Flood and Guilty Spark showed up. Halo 2 and 3 they were much larger and intimidating but at the same time it was offset by the Arbiter and the Civil War. ODST didn't quite have the whole invasion down as well as they could have but playing as the Rookie did have the 'Oh crap! I'm alone behind enemy lines.' feel to it. But in Reach I found things more grim and fatalistic, due in no small part to the fact we already know how it will end and in that a number of the levels truly conveyed the sense that I was facing down elements of a massive invasion force.

Beyond that Halo Reach is the first entry in the series where I actually felt something because of the story and there were a few moments were I actually wanted the game to somehow rewrite the canon so I could save Reach.

Of course I know you're not going to change your mind nor will you change mine with your arguments so really we're just beating a wall here.
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If halo did that I'd be happy. And finally space marine captured the strength of a space marine without sacrificing gameplay. plus has tons on enemies on screen.
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post #44 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-16-12, 10:06 PM
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First off the graphics of Serious Sam 3 weren't at the same level as Reach so they could get away with more. Second I've played SS3 and the most enemies I encountered in a single firefight were on par with what you faced in Reach's big battles. The difference being that the Covenant had some tactical sense to them (especially Elites and especially on the higher difficulties) like an actual real army and wouldn't zerg-rush you every time.

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post #45 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-17-12, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
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So yeah, if disliking and not caring about Halo makes me out of tune with culture then I guess I am.
Sorry if I offended you. What I was sort of getting at was the amount of advertising that went into this game on YouTube and places like that, but if that is your opinion then I am fine with that.

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post #46 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-17-12, 11:42 PM
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First off the graphics of Serious Sam 3 weren't at the same level as Reach so they could get away with more. Second I've played SS3 and the most enemies I encountered in a single firefight were on par with what you faced in Reach's big battles. The difference being that the Covenant had some tactical sense to them (especially Elites and especially on the higher difficulties) like an actual real army and wouldn't zerg-rush you every time.
You've read the halo books right? The covenant zerg rush all the time. Also the level where you first get the mini gun has allot more enemies at that point than even firefight.
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post #47 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-18-12, 02:19 AM
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That's because those sequences have you flying in a Falcon over a wide area of the battlefield in comparison to the small area a man on the ground would experience.

As to the zerg-rushing I would like to point out that bulk of that in the books (and the games) happens to feature the Grunts, the cannon fodder for the Covenant rushing. A Covenant commander doesn't give a damn about how many Grunts are killed and it shows.

There's also the fact that Spartans don't normally fight as normal soldier do to consider. They're commandos. Most of the time they're doing the important and dangerous missions away from the frontlines that must be completed. You only put them on things like defending installations when things have really hit the fan. In fact both the The Fall of Reach and Halo Reach mention that, using it as a sign of how bad things are on Reach.

And if you're a single soldier in a battle between two huge armies fighting that you're going to see the thousands of enemy soldiers. Look at D-Day. Do you think a Canadian soldier on Juno Beach would have seen what the Germans defending Omaha or Sword? No he would have seen only his small part of the battlefield. You've mentioned before The Fall of Reach and how they talked about hordes of Covenant swarming a UNSC base but did they actually show that battle or even elaborate on it? No all we had was that single radio transmission. Was it from an officer in some bunker observing the map as the increasing red blips smothering the decreasing green? Or was he a frantic soldier desperately trying fight back that just doesn't seem to exhaust itself say like in Firefight.

Finally the Covenant are just like any other army, they have to deal with the logistics of moving larger numbers of soldiers from Point A to Point B. Do you think that when they invade a city they just instantly plop down a couple thousand soldiers? No because they wouldn't have enough Spirits, Phantoms, drop pods and other transports to do so. Rather they would deploy them in waves like a real army or as seen in Firefight. In fact that would be how they did in Reach's case regardless of the version. In The Fall of Reach they had the Covenant invade the planet from the poles but do you really think they just a ton of soldiers and had them march across the planet? No they would have deployed fleets of dropships and transports carrying the soldiers to their targets. And that's actually why I don't like how quick that first version of Reach's fall was. Now I have no doubt that the Covenant ground forces they deployed numbered in the millions but here's the problems with that, A) this is Reach, the center of the UNSC's military and had an appropriately massive military presence (later Bungie confirmed it's total military manpower to be over 385,000,000) and B) those millions of Covenant would have spread across an entire planet. Now on any other planet they would have overrun things quite quickly but again this was Reach. Yeah the Covenant would have won in the end but even they couldn't have crushed Reach that quickly. They would have ground down the UNSC at first, picking up momentum until there was no stopping them. You know like how they've described many of the battles for other worlds the Covenant have conquered.

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post #48 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-18-12, 04:26 AM
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Finally the Covenant are just like any other army, they have to deal with the logistics of moving larger numbers of soldiers from Point A to Point B. Do you think that when they invade a city they just instantly plop down a couple thousand soldiers? No because they wouldn't have enough Spirits, Phantoms, drop pods and other transports to do so. Rather they would deploy them in waves like a real army or as seen in Firefight. In fact that would be how they did in Reach's case regardless of the version. In The Fall of Reach they had the Covenant invade the planet from the poles but do you really think they just a ton of soldiers and had them march across the planet? No they would have deployed fleets of dropships and transports carrying the soldiers to their targets. And that's actually why I don't like how quick that first version of Reach's fall was. Now I have no doubt that the Covenant ground forces they deployed numbered in the millions but here's the problems with that, A) this is Reach, the center of the UNSC's military and had an appropriately massive military presence (later Bungie confirmed it's total military manpower to be over 385,000,000) and B) those millions of Covenant would have spread across an entire planet. Now on any other planet they would have overrun things quite quickly but again this was Reach. Yeah the Covenant would have won in the end but even they couldn't have crushed Reach that quickly. They would have ground down the UNSC at first, picking up momentum until there was no stopping them. You know like how they've described many of the battles for other worlds the Covenant have conquered.
But remember, they're entire armada attacked Reach. At the beginning, the troops swarming the poles was just the tip of the Iceberg. What do you think would have happened once the Super Mac Guns in orbit were taken out, and the entire covenent armada had their troops launching towards the surface? That is millions upon millions upon millions more troops going towards the surface. The covenent had the numbers and technology to overwhelm the planet in a day. That is believable to me. The main defences were the super mac guns. Once those went, everyone knew that Reach was done. That is why I liked the book. That was the true feeling of hopelessness. Once the guns were down, once the fleet was scattered, Reach was done for. Hell, the conflict on Reach was even expanded in First Strike. It gave a first hand look at the odds on Reach. Even the surviving spartans experience that feeling of hopelessness.

The book was more believable than the game, IMHO. Seemingly endless numbers of enemies being launched from orbit mixed with superior numbers, tactically sound commanders, and superior technology, would meet with the believable ending of Reach falling in a day. To me, there is no way they could have held out for months. Not with the entire covenent force arrayed against them.

The Covenent knew what to expect of Reach. They were ready to attack. Their other engagements on other planets were smaller fleets attacking, thus meaning smaller forces arrayed against the defenders, thus meaning more time taken to conquer said planets.

Earth is a different story though. They had more Super Mac guns, the remainder of their entire fleet was in orbit or en route to Earth, it was their last bastion of defence. Their homeworld. The defenders knew what they were fighting to defend. They knew the cost of losing. That meant they would fight harder than the Reach defenders were able to. The defenders at Earth were ready for the Covenent unlike at Reach.

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post #49 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-18-12, 04:31 PM
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Yay! Arguing with a wall again! *sighs* Now we're just arguing opinions and preferences, a fight that will never end simply because neither of us will change our opinions.

But there are several things I would like to point out, first in regards to the Invasion of Earth. Now I have do doubt that the fleet seen in First Strike was being assembled for Earth's invasion but that fleet didn't see Earth. Truthfully the Covenant, save for two exceptions didn't know that Earth had a human presence much less that it was humanity's homeworld. Why do you think Regret showed up in Halo 2 with only what fifteen warships if he knew that Earth was man's homeworld. Also the invasion of the Sol System was different from Reach due to several factors. A) the fleet Truth had intended for Earth was wiped out, weakening their overall forces. B) for much of the actual invasion, not Regret's unintended attack the Covenant was going through a civil war. They couldn't bring anyway near the strength of the Reach invasion to Earth. C) their goals for Earth were far, far different than Reach. They wanted the Ark, everything else was to stall the UNSC as they dug up the portal.

In case you're wondering those exceptions were Truth and Mercy.

Furthermore its absurd to to think that Reach's defenders weren't fighting as hard and as desperately as those on Earth. They knew Reach was the last stronghold, the last line of defense before the Sol System and they knew that if it fell it would only be a matter of time before Earth fell. And that's not including the common reasons they share such as fighting for their lives and trying to buy time for civilian evacuations which was about 46% of Reach's population of 703,341,500.

And you've brought back to my mind the plotholes of The Halo of Reach that always bugged me. First off how did the Covenant know Reach was Reach. I understand the probe attached to the Iroquois but I doubt that one probe would have been able to detect the entire sum of the system's naval forces and installations in the span of a few days before reporting back. Given that the initial infiltration fleet in Halo Reach makes sense. They were there to assess the extend of human 'infestation' and what would be needed to deal with it. Second how did the Covenant know so quickly were the MAC generators were? Certainly the probe wouldn't have picked up on their locations and I suspect the UNSC would have tried to make them as hard to detect as possible simply because they would be a priority target for any invading force. The other aspect of that I didn't like was that in TFoR it seemed to imply that all the generators were clustered in the same area. To me that screamed 'Big Freaking Target here! Bomb! Bomb! Bomb!'. Beyond that if these generators are so vital to the planet's defenses that they would have already had protection before the Spartans showed up. And if you're under attack wouldn't you send more men to protect said vital locations from the invaders?

To me they what to hit on the planet way, way too fast to really believable unless they had that infiltration fleet scoping things out.

For me Halo Reach far better presented the battle of Reach. The Fall of Reach despite the title had less than a hundred pages for the actual fall of Reach. It felt thin and kind kind of shoehorned in. Personally I've always felt that TFoR was two novels cut down and meshed together. The Spartan origin story should have been its own story apart from The Fall of Reach, if for no other reason than to allow them to flesh out the titular battle. I mean the Battle of Sigma Octanus IV felt more engaging a battle than Reach did. It was almost like Nylund wrote out this wonderful backstory to the Spartans but then realized he didn't have much room left for the fall of Reach so he rushed through it.

You say that TFoR gave a sense of hopelessness but personally I didn't find it all that hopeless. Yeah having the other Spartans that we had grown attached to dying (at least apparently) was sad but it never felt hopeless simply because we knew the Chief survives and goes to Halo. But for me and my friends Halo Reach was different. The day Reach I did the campaign in co-op with a friend who was also a big Halo fan but had never read any of the novels. He only vaguely recognized Reach and didn't realize that it was doomed. At the beginning he thought that the Covenant was going to invade but Noble Team would heroically drive them off and save the day just like the Chief. But as the game went on his attitude changed and after Kat died he turned to me and something along the lines of 'Reach is doomed isn't it?' to which I replied yes. The expression on his face was unlike anything I had seen before. He was stunned that we were playing a game where we were destined to lose, horrified that if Reach was doomed so likely was Noble Team and actual anger that the Covenant were going to wipe out Reach but he loved it still, even more so given all that. In fact as much as he loved Halo 4's campaign Reach is still his favorite in the series. Afterwards I loaned him my copy of The Fall of Reach to read. Like me he loved the Spartan backstory but didn't like how they did Reach for much the same reasons as me. He than gave it to his girlfriend who knew next to nothing about Halo but was an avid fan of Fantasy and Science Fiction novels and you know what she said the Spartan backstory was great but the actual fall of Reach she described as 'rushed, dull and tacked on'.

Also Halo Reach spanned 38 days, just over one month not over months.

Anyway these are my opinions and those of my friends which differ from yours and those of other people none of which will change despite what either of us say. So can we please stop debating something that is a purely subjective matter.

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post #50 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-18-12, 04:36 PM
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But remember, they're entire armada attacked Reach. At the beginning, the troops swarming the poles was just the tip of the Iceberg. What do you think would have happened once the Super Mac Guns in orbit were taken out, and the entire covenent armada had their troops launching towards the surface? That is millions upon millions upon millions more troops going towards the surface. The covenent had the numbers and technology to overwhelm the planet in a day. That is believable to me. The main defences were the super mac guns. Once those went, everyone knew that Reach was done. That is why I liked the book. That was the true feeling of hopelessness. Once the guns were down, once the fleet was scattered, Reach was done for. Hell, the conflict on Reach was even expanded in First Strike. It gave a first hand look at the odds on Reach. Even the surviving spartans experience that feeling of hopelessness.

The book was more believable than the game, IMHO. Seemingly endless numbers of enemies being launched from orbit mixed with superior numbers, tactically sound commanders, and superior technology, would meet with the believable ending of Reach falling in a day. To me, there is no way they could have held out for months. Not with the entire covenent force arrayed against them.

The Covenent knew what to expect of Reach. They were ready to attack. Their other engagements on other planets were smaller fleets attacking, thus meaning smaller forces arrayed against the defenders, thus meaning more time taken to conquer said planets.

Earth is a different story though. They had more Super Mac guns, the remainder of their entire fleet was in orbit or en route to Earth, it was their last bastion of defence. Their homeworld. The defenders knew what they were fighting to defend. They knew the cost of losing. That meant they would fight harder than the Reach defenders were able to. The defenders at Earth were ready for the Covenent unlike at Reach.
Didn't they mention in halo 2 that the covenant didn't expect humans to be on earth? that's why they didn't bring a bigger fleet. And I do agree with that once the macs went down that was it. I don't like it that there's ground based macs that can cripple cruisers that come into atmosphere.

I mean I like the guns. But it bears the question why don't they spam those everywhere? it would seem to make sense.
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That's because those sequences have you flying in a Falcon over a wide area of the battlefield in comparison to the small area a man on the ground would experience.
I was talking about the serious sam minigun. you stated that the enemies that spawn are on the same level as on halo. That wasn't.
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