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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-29-11, 06:30 AM
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Really? WoW made the game work with 2 factions...
WoW was not and is still not a game that attempts to sell PvP as the end game. The amount of factions does not matter in a PvE game...see WoW. Now lets look at the opposite..Planetside, DAoC, Warhammer Online, Eve Online... In games focused on PvP the number of factions whether they are built into the game or player created is very important.

If you have only two sides(Warhammer Online) then it is easy for one side to be over populated and control the servers without giving the other side a fighting chance, this will cause a game to fail.

If you have 3 sides you have the option of the weaker sides teaming up to unseat the stronger side at the time which allows people to change the team in power at the time.

In the end, my argument is that WoW is not built with a PvP endgame so is not valid in comparison with a game being built for PvP.

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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-29-11, 04:12 PM
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WoW was not and is still not a game that attempts to sell PvP as the end game. The amount of factions does not matter in a PvE game...see WoW. Now lets look at the opposite..Planetside, DAoC, Warhammer Online, Eve Online... In games focused on PvP the number of factions whether they are built into the game or player created is very important.

If you have only two sides(Warhammer Online) then it is easy for one side to be over populated and control the servers without giving the other side a fighting chance, this will cause a game to fail.

If you have 3 sides you have the option of the weaker sides teaming up to unseat the stronger side at the time which allows people to change the team in power at the time.

In the end, my argument is that WoW is not built with a PvP endgame so is not valid in comparison with a game being built for PvP.
Can you link something that states that 40k DMO is going to have a PVP based endgame as opposed to a PVE endgame?

Because right now I can't seem to find anything that states that they are focusing the end game on PVP content as opposed to PVE. At least anything that makes the claim PVP will be more of a focus then it is in WoW.
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-29-11, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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I believe sometimes a certain degree of fluff purity has to be sacrificed to design a viable game
I think this principle especially applies to the 40k IP

the question is "how much?"
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-29-11, 06:15 PM
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Can you link something that states that 40k DMO is going to have a PVP based endgame as opposed to a PVE endgame?

Because right now I can't seem to find anything that states that they are focusing the end game on PVP content as opposed to PVE. At least anything that makes the claim PVP will be more of a focus then it is in WoW.
It's a Warhammer IP? "There is only war"? Ring a bell? No?

They may be dumb enough to design a 40K MMO based on 2 factions, but I don't see enough evidence to believe their entire collection of game developers are mentally stunted enough to let fly a 40K MMO based on loot piñata game play ála WOW.

Though if they did, I might not ever stop laughing.

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-29-11, 07:10 PM
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It's a Warhammer IP? "There is only war"? Ring a bell? No?

They may be dumb enough to design a 40K MMO based on 2 factions, but I don't see enough evidence to believe their entire collection of game developers are mentally stunted enough to let fly a 40K MMO based on loot piñata game play ála WOW.

Though if they did, I might not ever stop laughing.
Really? Cause the Warcraft world seemed to have an awful lot of War going on in it's 3 games and two expansions before the MMO.

Then, lo and behold, we have WoW. All the sudden the War in Warcraft vanishes (more or less). No longer is the Orcs/humans goals simply to kill each other, they have other threats to worry about. Their armies mostly sit idle in their cities and a little cold war erupts. There's PVP in the game, as you fight to gain petty victories for proxies of the two main governments, but all out War does not happen.

And you still haven't provided any actual evidence of the game not being a PVE based game as opposed to PVP. You simply state "Well, it's a 40K game it's GOT to be PVP based." Not much evidence there.
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-30-11, 12:25 AM
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Minigames are not PvP... Once that little confusion is out of the way, maybe it's possible to have a real look at what is likely and what is not.

Arenas, warfronts/ battlegrounds and duels are all "gamey" shit that no strategic PvP minded player is even slightly interested in. This is where the problem with 2 factions come in. For a game based on the Warhammer or Warhammer 40K license to work (like WAR almost did) you have to have persistent PvP (or RvR) - a shifting battlefield that players must adapt to to succeed with their faction. When you only have 2 factions, inevitably one side will end up with most of the players on the server and completely dominate the control points/forts/battlefield/whatever. In a 3 faction system this problem hardly exists because the two less populated sides can gang up on the one that is growing too big. This kind of PvP is dynamic, challenging and interesting but will not work with 2 factions.

Comparatively, minigames like battlegrounds are mindnumbing activities invented to waste time. Sure, teamwork is present and needed, but there is no variety, no shifting strategy to adjust to, no life. Just run out, kill, respawn. And then? One side wins and nothing happens. The instance is deleted and what you just did had no impact on anything at all, except your character's pathetic little xp and/or renown bar and your own lifetime, of which you just threw 10 minutes of into a black hole on some server for an experience you will repeat a thousand times like the sad little hamster-on-a-wheel you are.

It's basically this:

An amalgam of semi-realistic warfare vs. a little game of rinse-and-reapeat with a skinner's box reward

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Last edited by MetalHandkerchief; 12-30-11 at 12:31 AM.
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-30-11, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
Really? Cause the Warcraft world seemed to have an awful lot of War going on in it's 3 games and two expansions before the MMO.

Then, lo and behold, we have WoW. All the sudden the War in Warcraft vanishes (more or less). No longer is the Orcs/humans goals simply to kill each other, they have other threats to worry about. Their armies mostly sit idle in their cities and a little cold war erupts. There's PVP in the game, as you fight to gain petty victories for proxies of the two main governments, but all out War does not happen.

And you still haven't provided any actual evidence of the game not being a PVE based game as opposed to PVP. You simply state "Well, it's a 40K game it's GOT to be PVP based." Not much evidence there.
You seem to think 40k would work as a PvE focused game, and good for you have fun with that. I disagree with you and I am sure many others disagree with you. There is also no evidence that this is a PvE focused game as you seem to believe. The feel of the universe suggest it is a PvP game.

The fact is there are problems with a two sided PvP game if you need proof of this please look up the other PvP games that have come and gone in the last 15 years.

Also WoW is not a PvP game..

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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-30-11, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MetalHandkerchief View Post
Minigames are not PvP... Once that little confusion is out of the way, maybe it's possible to have a real look at what is likely and what is not.
So players fighting players =/= PvP? I was quite sure that PvP stood for Player vs Player. Can you explain then what PvP means?

Quote:
Arenas, warfronts/ battlegrounds and duels are all "gamey" shit that no strategic PvP minded player is even slightly interested in.
OK, now I get it. You don't consider any form of PvP beyond RvR world PvP to actually be PvP. You've taken a very narrow definition of what PvP actually is that seems to stem from the fact that you prefer RvR style of combat as opposed to the "gamey" types of PvP.

Quote:
This is where the problem with 2 factions come in. For a game based on the Warhammer or Warhammer 40K license to work (like WAR almost did) you have to have persistent PvP (or RvR) - a shifting battlefield that players must adapt to to succeed with their faction. When you only have 2 factions, inevitably one side will end up with most of the players on the server and completely dominate the control points/forts/battlefield/whatever. In a 3 faction system this problem hardly exists because the two less populated sides can gang up on the one that is growing too big. This kind of PvP is dynamic, challenging and interesting but will not work with 2 factions.
I think what you mean to say is:

"For a game based on the Warhammer or Warhammer 40K license to be true to the IP and work (like WAR almost did) you have to have persistent PvP (or RvR) - a shifting battlefield that players must adapt to to succeed with their faction."

And I agree with that. IF DMO is to be a RvR focused game it should have 3 factions (minimum) otherwise it will just go the way Warhammer Online.

Quote:
Comparatively, minigames like battlegrounds are mindnumbing activities invented to waste time. Sure, teamwork is present and needed, but there is no variety, no shifting strategy to adjust to, no life. Just run out, kill, respawn. And then? One side wins and nothing happens. The instance is deleted and what you just did had no impact on anything at all, except your character's pathetic little xp and/or renown bar and your own lifetime, of which you just threw 10 minutes of into a black hole on some server for an experience you will repeat a thousand times like the sad little hamster-on-a-wheel you are.
Even in RvR style games the "persistent" world would eventually reset back to some type of default. Otherwise once one faction gains momentum they would never lose it.

And, seriously, don't try to make it sound like RvR style of combat is somehow so much deeper then any of the "gamey" types of PvP. RvR is simply a world type of Capture the Point (or Arthai Basin to all the WoW players out there). You will still be repeating the same thing week in and week out. Your faction will push for a point, you may take it or be pushed back. The other faction will push and you may or may not be successful in defending. That's it.

Quote:
It's basically this:

An amalgam of semi-realistic warfare vs. a little game of rinse-and-reapeat with a skinner's box reward
No it's more like this:

Fighting players in the general game world while trying to capture points, all the while telling yourself your not doing any type of "gamey" PvP or a big game of rinse-and-reapeat vs. doing a little game of rinse-and-reapeat that is based around the "gamey" ideas of PvP.

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Originally Posted by BrainFreeze View Post
You seem to think 40k would work as a PvE focused game, and good for you have fun with that. I disagree with you and I am sure many others disagree with you. There is also no evidence that this is a PvE focused game as you seem to believe. The feel of the universe suggest it is a PvP game.
That's great that the "feel" of the universe would point towards a 40K themed DAoC (which also had a good amount of PVE content) but I'm still asking for evidence of DMO actually being a PVP focused game. No one has yet to provide such evidence. Therefore I don't feel bad assuming that the game will be PvE, just like you guys assume the game will be PvP.

Quote:
The fact is there are problems with a two sided PvP game if you need proof of this please look up the other PvP games that have come and gone in the last 15 years.
That is all dependent on the extent of PVP in the game. In a RvR type of game, like DAoC, you need 3 factions to prevent overpopulation of one faction. In a non RvR type of game, like WoW, it doesn't matter how many factions you have, as the PvP happens in population controlled instanced zones.

Quote:
Also WoW is not a PvP game..
I never claimed WoW was a PvP focused game. I simply stated that WoW has PvP with only 2 available player factions.

BTW I'm still waiting for someone to link me information where a developer states that DMO will be a PvP focused game.
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-31-11, 01:08 AM
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BTW I'm still waiting for someone to link me information where a developer states that DMO will be a PvP focused game.
MMO developers don't do that because they generally like fooling the hamsters to buy the box and a month subscription for the initial release. Their information is always wilfully vague. Rift for example, where they promised persistent tactical PvP right up until the week it launched. Don't worry though, you'll get the hang of this eventually, once you play a few MMO's.

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That I was loved for who I am
And missed the opportunity
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~MUSE - Hoodoo
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-31-11, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MetalHandkerchief View Post
MMO developers don't do that because they generally like fooling the hamsters to buy the box and a month subscription for the initial release. Their information is always wilfully vague. Rift for example, where they promised persistent tactical PvP right up until the week it launched. Don't worry though, you'll get the hang of this eventually, once you play a few MMO's.
That's funny because Everquest, DAoC, Anarchy Online, Everquest 2, WoW, Planetside, SWG, EvE, Lineage 2, Ragnarok Online, Final Fantasy XI, City of Heroes, Champions Online, DC Universe, Guild Wars, D&D Online, RF Online, Vanguard, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, SWTOR, and LOTR Online were mostly clear about PVP vs PVE aspects of their games. Those were MMO's I was paying attention to because I intended to, and did play.

While I'll admit there were and are some games that pull the bait and switch (Rift) generally you know if the game is going to be a PvP or a PvE focus before the game launches.
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