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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 11-23-10, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Default Characters on Monstrous Beasties joining units

In the Army List section I have read a couple of comments saying things like - " Don't put your Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut because he won't be able to join a unit".

Well I've looked in the VBRB (the Very Big Red Book) and I can't see why that would be correct. A Juggernaut is a Monstrous Beast. Characters can't join units if they are 'a monster, riding a monster or in a chariot' (page 97). But a Mostrous Beast is NOT a Monster, it's a different category (page 85). So as I read it my Lord on his Jugger can join a unit of Infantry if he wants to.

By extension, the same would be true if he was on a Daemonic Mount or if he was Wood Elf on an Eagle.

Am I right or am I deluded? I've only played a few games of 8th so far and my WoC are still undr construction so the point hasn't arisen in practice yet.

Thanks
TT
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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 11-23-10, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Truthteller View Post

Am I right or am I deluded? I've only played a few games of 8th so far and my WoC are still undr construction so the point hasn't arisen in practice yet.

Thanks
TT
no you are right you can add Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut to a unit.

its more for because there are two reason why not to add them in your list.

1. loss of line of sight protection so he can be pick off. (Look out sir is a bit hard)
2. best save is now 1+ which you can get from most chaos mount with a shield for less points

sure l love painting them, (got 2) but in a torny list stick with a warhorse.

My Chaos Army
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...m/P1060039.jpg you can see them all in the the heresy gallery under WoC
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/gallery
~desu
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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 11-23-10, 08:53 PM
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A character on a monster cannot join a unit (of non-monsters) as explicitly stated in the BRB (too damagerous to the other models in the unit), but the Jugg is not consider a "monster". A Jugg is a "monstrous beast" (such as a Daemonic mount, Rat Ogre mount, or Jugg) and the character on the mount is considered "monstrous cavalry" which, confusing enough, is not the same as a character on a monstrous mount (such as a stegadon or dragon). A character on a Jugg or Daemonic mount, therefore, can join a unit, BUT it doesn't get a Look Out Sir! unless it is in a unit of five or more rank-and-file models (including musicians and standard bearers but not champs) that are also classified as monstrous cavalry. Thus, the only character on a Jugg able to get a Look Out Sir benefit would be a Herald of Khorne on a Jugg in a unit of 5 or more (non-champ) bloodcrushers in a Daemons of Chaos army.

As explained on p. 99 of BRB, the character on a Jugg in a unit cannot be targetted in a unit by "normal" shooting (shooting based on BS) but can be hit after one shot has been allocated to each other model in the unit. However, the character can be targetted by certain template and line shooting and missiles that are not allocated across the unit and gets no Look Out Sir! at all from shooting or ranged magic attacks. That means that cannons, stone throwers, mortars, warp-lightning cannons, flame templates, and magic spells that use templates or can target directly will hit the character (if a hit is rolled) and the character will get not Look Out Sir! roll at all.

The meta game is shifing such, with no guess range in 8th edition, one will start seeing more war machine shooting such as warp-lightning cannons (skaven), cannons (empire, dwarves), and stone thrower-type weapons (brets-trebs, orcs & goblins, dwarves-grudge, empire-mortar, and Tomb Kings-skulls) with high S and multiple wounds upon direct hits that will kill characters (absent a successful ward save) within a turn or two on average, especially if accompanied by re-rolls of misfire or scatter dice in some of the armies. Additionally, there are quite a few template and direct damage magic attacks that will hit a character and potentially kill it absent a Look Out Sir! but could, otherwise, be avoided with a successful look-out sir roll. Thus, putting a character on a mount in an infantry unit or putting a character on a Jugg in a warriors of chaos army will expose the character to much greater risk of being killed with a lucky shot or spell from certain war machines and certain spells that, otherwise, the character could avoid with a Look Out Sir! roll if the character were in a unit of five or more rank-and-file models of the same troop type as the character.
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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 11-23-10, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. That makes sense.

If I have got this right it's a second order problem - the character can join and help the unit but the unit effectively gives nothing back.

TT
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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 11-23-10, 10:27 PM
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that's right and that's why people stick with a warhorse

My Chaos Army
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...m/P1060039.jpg you can see them all in the the heresy gallery under WoC
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/gallery
~desu
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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 11-28-10, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Truthteller View Post
Thanks guys. That makes sense.

If I have got this right it's a second order problem - the character can join and help the unit but the unit effectively gives nothing back.

TT
Putting a chaos lord in a block of warriors is like tying a battleship named "THE SS DICKSTOMPER" to a bunch of rowboats.

Sure it's a bunch of rowboats. But they've got a fucking battleship tied to them!

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

It's not a question of who will let me, it's a question of who will stop me.
You fight for nothing! You are nothing!
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