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Why bother with the new 40k Deathwatch?

6K views 44 replies 9 participants last post by  jin 
#1 ·
So for those that haven't seen the rules yet... click here.

I need some help trying to figure out the point to these guys.

Squad Donatus: Assuming that the frag cannon is around the same points as a plasma cannon, this 5 man squad is 10 points more expensive than a standard 5-man sternguard with the same wargear. These 10 points get you Stubborn on your vet Sergeant, precision shots on ONE boltgun, FNP on ONE guy, and 2 CCW on one guy.

Ortan Cassius: +5 points for special ammo in the bolt pistol.

Edryc Setorax: +1 point for Stealth. Otherwise he has Raven Guard tactics.

Antor Delassio: +1 point for absolutely nothing that I can see. BA tactics included.

Jensus Natorian: +5 points for special ammo in the bolt pistol.

Garran Barantar: The only Cheap purchase I can find. -15 points if you consider the master craft on both weapons, AND the fact that he gets a second gun. However, he has no special rules to FIRE both.

Jetek Suberei: +4 points for Special Issue Ammo on the bike's bolters, and a TeleHomer.

Kill Team Cassius: WHY. Why would anyone want a large unit where the bikes and jump packs are slowed down by the Terminator and Heavy Weapon? Is the rerollng 1s that important?

*note: Edryc, Antor, Garran, and Jetek are Characters, but NOT Independent Characters. Therefore, they're going to die fast outside of the Kill Team formation.
 
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#2 ·
Not everyone is motivated by rules. Those are some sweet models, and I would love to play skirmishes using them like the Last Chancers.

If you're all about rules then skip this and wait for the next rotfstomp Formation to come out. Easy peasy.
 
#5 ·
That's the only use for them to you, to be sure. There's a ton of excitement for these guys in my group and, iirc, we don't yet have actual knowledge of how they fit into the game individually. They have FOC designations but they're not Space Marine Faction so this is a bit premature anyway.

Personally I'd play them against increasing points values and create custom scenarios around them to help balance the game. Sure there's the minigame but I like the parameters of 40k more for gameplay.

The more I think of it, there could easily be a Deathwatch Detachment with a FOC and maybe there's even rules for creating your own DW members. Great way for GW to expand the line and pilfer our wallets more, just like what's rumoured (and what I've always thought would happen) with Battle at Calth.
 
#7 ·
I pre-ordered the genestealer patriarch from b&k - I'll use it as a broodlord :)

Rest of the kit is cool, but not for my taste. For some reason I am not a fan of genestealer cults (a huge fan of the pure Tyranid genestealers though) and don't really like the lack of an inquisition leader. In stead we get an all SM line up.

But I must say the kit looks good, I am sure the game is awesome, but just not for me.
 
#9 ·
if i didn't already have too much to do,
and if i had a basement,
i would pick this up with a small inquisition force built around the box contents.
add a few units into two 1500 point armies.
build cool lists and keep them as permanent armies
like a chess kit in the basement.

instead, i have been basically working to this situation
closer to 3000pts. each side
with inquisition/marines
eldar and harlequins
and orks with some chaos allies.
 
#13 · (Edited)
looking back,
i think that there is a bit of a misunderstanding.
i am 110% for buying this new box
and building the cult into an ally for a few other armies
in a collection, would be awesome and playable so many ways.
no need to use GW formation named ability nonsense
unless someone were to want to do so...
and here is where things start to go wrong, for me.
it's like racketball.
some dudes are really into winning,
so pay for lessons and buy a expensive gear,
and then give you a good match for sure,
but then there is the guy with the weird style,
and maybe a couple of killer moves,
and a mix of players like that is the most fun...
and best for someone who wants to be a good racketball player in the long run also...
i just tend to see 40k like this.
a hobby, wherein the buy-in is mainly time and creativity and practice
instead of a credit card, epistane and the new magic racket.
 
#15 ·
Personally I am tempted by this game, I have fond memories of playing space hulk back in the nineties, and this looks along those lines.
Also I ran a stealer cult with no cultists just stealers and a patriarch. Being able to expand on that original force would be a cool addition to my nids. But I am not sure about the marine elements, their 40k rules do seem a little odd, unless some new kill team rules are in the pipeline. For lone marines are not going to last long in a game above 300 points.
 
#24 · (Edited)
If you want people to understand what you are writing, try actually using punctuation and proper grammar.

Cooperation is valuable to humanity as a race, yes. That has literally no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. Competitive play and casual play do not need each other. Some people enjoy only one of them, and they will keep enjoying it if the other stops. Sure, people that like both would be sad, but it wouldn't prevent them from still playing the game. In fact, if Games Workshop wasn't catering to different crowds, a lot of people might even like the game more. Neither competitive play nor casual play is more valid or necessary. Your opinion that the two need to cooperate is irrelevant.
 
#32 ·
If you want people to understand what you are writing, try actually using punctuation and proper grammar. Especially
yeah, "especially"[.]

Cooperation is valuable to humanity as a race, yes. That has literally no bearing whatsoever on this discussion.
y? u r not human?

Competitive play and casual play do not need each other. Some people enjoy only one of them, and they will keep enjoying it if the other stops. Sure, people that like both would be sad, but it wouldn't prevent them from still playing the game.
y play a game that makes u sad?

In fact, if Games Workshop wasn't catering to different crowds, a lot of people might even like the game more. Neither competitive play nor casual play is more valid or necessary. Your opinion that the two need to cooperate is irrelevant.

Look, brainchild, this has everything to do with the current discussion.
There is only one crowd.
You choose to see things otherwise, as is typical, but this bigotry is post hoc.

"Why bother" is a question that arises in a certain context.
Note how the recent comments have advised that the player collect for a more powerful force as written in the rules.
And yet, one commenter has suggested rather that he wants to collect a less powerful perhaps allied detachment per the rules because this is fun, like the Last Chancers with some role-play built in.
So, from this perspective, collecting Deathwatch is very worthwhile.
From a "competitive" card-game point of view, it is senseless, because everyone knows that collections are justified when they result in hyper-powered raw stacked decks.
Well, sometimes, especially maybe after 30,000 years of war, people are not able to stack their decks anymore. The universe is not full of super-killy raw idiocy. Rather, one must use what one has, e.g. Last Chancer style.

In my opinion, this box is one of the coolest things I have seen from GW in a very long time,
including the 30k box.
But, of course, I am discouraged from buying it because I don't want to show up for a game with some card player who is looking for practice with his deathstar and have the poor bean counter be disappointed to play against a list that 'no one wants to play against'.
 
#25 ·
Guys, is it really worth interacting this way? The thread's about the Deathwatch and their viability in 40k with their known WD rules, not the differences between competitive and casual play.

I was looking at the FOC designations of the various DW models and there's the following assortment:

2 HQ
3 Elite
1 Troop
1 Fast Attack

Given that we have all 8 pages of rules spoiled (thanks to some handsome guy over in the linked Rumour thread) I doubt we'll be seeing any form of Deathwatch Detachment in the near future. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like the only way to field them outside of the supremely awesome Formation is via an Allied Detachment.

The only way I could play them as a standalone Last Chancer/Dirty Dozen (the bird counts, right??) force is via an Unbound list. Looks like custom mission scenarios will be in order if I ever get the chance to involve them in games. I know a few people getting the box and while they all play in the local tournaments they also love a good narrative match with a special scenario to change things up a bit.
 
#26 ·
Stop being on-topic, can't you see we're crashing this thread with no survivors?!

Given that we have all 8 pages of rules spoiled (thanks to some handsome guy over in the linked Rumour thread) I doubt we'll be seeing any form of Deathwatch Detachment in the near future. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like the only way to field them outside of the supremely awesome Formation is via an Allied Detachment.

The only way I could play them as a standalone Last Chancer/Dirty Dozen (the bird counts, right??) force is via an Unbound list. Looks like custom mission scenarios will be in order if I ever get the chance to involve them in games. I know a few people getting the box and while they all play in the local tournaments they also love a good narrative match with a special scenario to change things up a bit.
...but why would you want to? You can represent everyone other than Jap Cap Subuteo with a 1st Company Strike Force, except it'd be, y'know, customisable so you can fulfill your 'my dudes' dreams.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Standalone meaning by themselves, nothing else. Do you remember how the Last Chancers were introduced to the game? Those were some of the most fun games I ever played as a kid.

I want to because I think it's cool, why else? You should know by now I'm not talking about playing this at a tournament or in a competitive setting, we've had enough conversations over the years and threads to move on from such assumptions. Did my mention of custom scenarios and narrative gaming not tip you off brother?

EDIT: ninja'd by @Xabre. I would like to learn more about that Detachment you speak of.
 
#29 ·
Standalone meaning by themselves, nothing else. Do you remember how the Last Chancers were introduced to the game? Those were some of the mose fun games I ever played as a kid.
Before my time, me old fruit.

The First Company Strike Force is nearly standalone - sure, you have to bring 15 guys instead of what, nine or ten or however many there are in the box, but is that really such a massive deal?

I want to because I think it's cool, why else? You should know by now I'm not talking about playing this at a tournament or in a competitive setting, we've had enough conversations over the years and threads to move on from such assumptions. Did my mention of custom scenarios and narrative gaming not tip you off brother?
So why not use the formation?

EDIT: ninja'd by @Xabre. I would like to learn more about that Detachment you speak of.
2 Sternguard Squads and a Captain, they get Preferred Enemy against one Xenos Codex chosen at the start of the game and get Antiphasic Bolts added to their list of ammo; AP4 bolters that force re-rolls on Reanimation Protocols.
 
#35 ·
From what I can tell, they are not all essential anyway. There is a five man squad that can have one or both characters attached to it. They fall under Troops and HQ respectively so this forms a neat little allied unit for any other Imperial Army. The remaining models can be used as characters elsewhere, including plastic alternatives to Khan and Shrike. Granted they're not the most balanced unit internally, but they are not without uses.
 
#42 ·
Total Deathwatch comes to 535 pts. Using less can save you potentially over a hundred points.

If I understand the objection correctly, it is that the options to field the Deathwatch seem noncompetitive right? You can only field them as a single unit OR as their separate units. Which means you end up with four single models that cannot join units.

Alright. My brother and I were examining this problem last night and we've come to the simplest solution we can. The Deathwatch are an Inquisitor faction set of units, and as such can be allied to any Imperial force. Our immediate thought was Astra Militarum. The Donatus squad can run quite comfortably on its own, all of them are able to advance and shoot and the unit has a good mix of ranged fire options as well as decent cc ability.

Cassius and Natorian are both independent characters, both have their typical unit type rules and special issue ammo. There's no real problem here, they can both join any Imperial unit they want or need to.

The remaining four present the real issue here, however they do seem to be designed with a degree of synergy in mind. Suberei on a bike with a teleport homer is an obvious link to Branatar's terminator deep strike.
Setorax honestly seems like the only one capable of really making any headway on his own, having a +3 to his cover save on the first turn and +1 from then onwards, as well as the ability to jump in movement and assault phases.
Delassio seems to be the most useless. No special cc gear and a lower tier version of a weapon already carried by a more resilient member.

So what did we decide? Easy. We're just not using all of them. Squad Donatus and most likely Natorian will be added to his Astra Militarum as an allied contingent. With an elite slot it is possible that Setorax will be used as well, but when run outside their formation it is not essential to use them all anyway.

Meanwhile, we have models that can be stand ins for other models in his space marine army. His most common opponents are my tyranids and necrons, so it's easy to justify a Deathwatch team being split among his army to provide support and advice. They would look Deathwatch, but just count as members of those units. If no units of their type exist, then they can be counted as characters. In this way none of the models are wasted and having at least one or two actual Deathwatch units helps keep the theme.
 
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