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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-09, 03:48 AM Thread Starter
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ok, I know this is a rant but I am sure some people are with me on this one. I know that we have come a long way since the dispicable "CharacterHammer" and believe me, I LOVE warhammer, however, one thing hits me in the pelvis and spits on my granny. Characters are still to ripped!, I know their stats represent their valor in combat, But they shouldnt be able to take on whole units by themselves, and having them flee away in terror!

I personally think some characters need a serious downgrade I think its redunculous to see lords and heroes, and special characters that make up half your army! I dunno, just wanted to see if anyone agreed with me.
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-09, 08:38 AM
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It depends which army you use, My characters are more ld buffs than any real offensive capability even the Ogre tyrant is a liability unless in a unit and I doubt he could take down a fully ranked unit,maybe goblins or skaven slaves, on his own.
The only armies that are really guilty of character overkill are Chaos mortals and deamons and Vampire counts but then they pay for this with expensive characters and missing parts from their general army gameplay.
Named special characters are maybe overpowered but can usually be countered in different ways or by using different characters.

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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-09, 09:05 AM
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I kinda disagree, yes, it is possible to have a character who is capable of ripping his way through a regiment. But as you say, such characters often cost upwards of 25&#37; of your total army value.

If somebody wants to put all their eggs in one potentially very squishy model, I say all speed to them. I will ensure that any cannons/assasins/dragon ogres with gw I have in my army are pointed at them and set to kill.

Kill said character 2-3 games in a row against the same opponent and you may find that next time they come back with a more balanced list
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-09, 11:19 AM
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I am very much in agreement with Critta, yes there are some powerful characters, a couple that are game changing, but generally their inclusion results in a weakness somewhere else. As an O&G and WE player I don't often bother with special characters, but the Lords and Heroes are needed for the leadership and the flexibility that they offer.

Woodies have the perfect counter to melee SCs in the treeman ancient with annoyance of netlings. There are plenty of other counters too, not least just avoiding the slower characters or feeding them cheap tarpits.

I agree that some of the newer Special Characters are a little boring to play against every week, along the lines of Archaon hanging around with a handful of mates and going on every little raid. But then once you get the hang of how to counter them, they quickly disappear. If you really don't like playing SCs then maybe suggest you have a few games without them?
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-09, 12:36 PM
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Special Characters have, in both 40k and fantasy, always been the sort of thing not meant to be brought in every single game. Recently, Games Workshop has changed that approach with their whole "key" characters thing, and making named characters just a part of the core army list. My understanding, from interviews with games designers, is that the new approach of putting named characters in the main army lists is to pander to the majority of people who show up at Games Workshop stores, and from what they've gathered, seem unable to play a game without a named character.

I've never gotten the impression that characters (of the non-named persuasion) were particularly broken. You need characters for their leadership, and you need them to provide defense against casters in the form of the ubiquotous scroll caddy. Sure, some characters are perfectly capable of fighting units on their own, but they tend to be more expensive than the units they're fighting, so that seems reasonable. For example, my Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut is tooled out to take on an entire unit all by himself. However, he's 375 points. He should be able to take on a 20-strong Core or Special unit for the most part. Conversely, though, a single character taking on a unit by himself is rather dangerous. Your average brick of 20 models is going to have a static combat of 5 against a single character (3 ranks, banner, numbers), so if the character doesn't kill five models, he's going to lose combat.

Ultimately, fighter characters are there to bolster the battle line by killing two or three more enemies in a combat and provide superior leadership to the unit's that they're leading. When you consider both sides are likely to have characters like that, it seems very fair to me.

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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-09, 12:37 PM
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Combat Capable Characters are easily avoidable. Flying ones, on super duper mounts? You're against an army worth 500pts or more of less value than yours.

They're easy enough to tarpit in, and avoid. Magic Ones? Shut them down with magic counters. Good at both? You will outnumber them.

Also, armies now rely on the killing power of your troops, and just use the Characters as assists to get the 1 or 2 kills to tip the balance of the fight in your favour. Simple, just don't let them hit your lines. If they do, they will munch through them. Move valuables away, have diversions, and counters set up. Lose a turn of shooting with a War Machine, by moving, or lose the War Machine itself?

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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 01-29-09, 08:59 PM
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Don't forget that the power of characters is very much a function of the army you play against, and in most cases adds to that armies theme. Empire characters for example are very cheap, limited in individual power, but bolster your lines with good leadership. This works with the mutual support theme of the Empire.

Now look at Vampire Counts. Crazy strong caster vampires that with the right gear become almost unkillable. Again if you look at the theme of the army, hordes of shambling undead brought to life by the will of a vampire, it works with the theme of the army that such characters should be so powerful.

I can't say I'm happy about the game moving towards named characters as the only source of army customization (see Wolfrik, all the SM chapter masters in 40k). However like Horus points out, it does solve the issue of players going against the implied gentlemen's agreement of these games that named characters were only for rare occasions and themed games. his new direction will probably work out for the better. And if you think they're too powerful, just put Archaen down on one side of the table, and 700 points of Orcs down on the other side. That should give you a pretty good visual of how freaking expensive characters are, and how they NEED to be that buffed to be worthwhile.
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