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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-01-09, 03:13 AM Thread Starter
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How Anti-Fluff Would This Be?

I'm looking for some advice on the fluff of an army I want to build.

Basically, the army is a "chapter" of Space Marines who view the Codex Astartes as too limiting, and seek a more open minded (some might say, radical) approach to dealing with the enemies of the Imperium. Thus, this "chapter" has alligned itself with an Inquisitor who shares their view that the only way to truely defeat the enemies of the Imperium is to turn their own weapons against them (a Radical). Now, this Inquisitor, while a Radical, is an Oblationist, believing that the the daemon, the psyker, and the xeno are evil, but recognizing that some must sacrifice themselves in using these evil means to protect the Imperium.

Now, that being said, here's my question. Would it be fluffy for the Space Marines that make up this chapter to come from a mix of existing chapters?

Can Space Marines who drastically disagree with the Codex Astartes leave their chapter without the penalty of death?

While I'm sure some chapters would support doing this, and might very well see seconding or permanently assigning some of their Marines to this chapter as a high honor, I could see some more traditional chapters being utterly opposed to the idea, going so far as to execute any who abandon their chapter.

So, could Marines from Chapters such as the Ultramarines or a successor chapter, Imperial Fists, or another First Founding chapter be found in such a force? Would it be a total breach of fluff?

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-01-09, 08:08 AM
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There is the Ordo Xenos Deathwatch which is a marine organization made from multiple chapters, who serve the Inquisition as Xenos killers. but i don't think there are, or would be, any other forces out there.

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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-01-09, 08:45 AM
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I suppose it is possible, if you did it as another type of Deathwatch. Depending on how you wanted to go about it, the detail would all be in your own fluff.
Deathwatch teams already exist, so setting one up of your own shoudn't be a problem.
The Only issue could be the anti Codex Astartes attitude, but I suppose you could draw from non codex chapters, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels etc.
Almost anything can be done with the right fluff, sounds like a good idea to me.

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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-01-09, 09:25 AM
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It's not as anti-fluffy (or heretical) as the Emprah with a goatee, let me tell you.

As was said, these could be a special form of Deathwatch.
Though... someone leaving the Ultrasmurfs because of a limiting codex... spells Smurf rage.
Also... in what way would they 'sacrifice themselves to use these evil means'?
Do ya mean they would become Daemonhosts or would carry Eldar weaponry?
THAT would be against every Space marine's beliefs.

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-01-09, 11:31 AM
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they could be made up of renegade marines
as in marines who have been removed from their chapter for outrageous behavior, but not for murder. like if an ultramarines captain became the captian of an xenos deathwatch squad just because they need a commander, then his chapter would disown him, but he may be given a chance for redemption through a quest of sorts....



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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-01-09, 01:08 PM
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It doesn't matter if it is 'anti-fluff'; the 40k universe is big enough to house ALL of our ideas. The big thing to do is to make it logically consistent. Make the characters and their motivations believable in a 40k context, and then it doesn't matter what the idea is.
As to making it logically consistent, I'm not sure that Astartes Chapters would be happy to let individual Space Marines leave if their ideas don't match anymore. If this started to become an issue, I think the Marine in question would just be taken for some more psycho-doctrination. It might be better to have an Inquisitor convince a Chapter's leadership cadre of the 'rightness' of going by the Radical route and then the Chapter Master convinces the rest of the Chapter.
If you like, here's an idea. Of course if you don't like it feel free to ignore it! A Chapter takes heavy losses fighting against the forces of Chaos, maybe down to the equivalent of 2/2.5 Companies. They retire to thier fortress-monastery to recoup their losses and an Inquisitor joins them who has been fighting in the same conflict, his/her group purging the corrupted nobility of the planet's capital hive. The Inquisitor has come to the conclusion that the best way to destroy Chaos is with Chaos after witnessing the power of the Chaos Sorcerers and, seeing the badly mauled Chapter thinks that he can recruit them to his/her way of thinking. So as the Chapter gains new recruits they are trained with this new Radical mindset. This could give you a potential plot-hook/point as the veterans who survived the Chaos invasion are unsure as to wether they want to go with this new direction.
Anyway, I hope this helps you and doesn't distract you too much!

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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-01-09, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Fossil Penguin View Post
It doesn't matter if it is 'anti-fluff'; the 40k universe is big enough to house ALL of our ideas. The big thing to do is to make it logically consistent. Make the characters and their motivations believable in a 40k context, and then it doesn't matter what the idea is.
As to making it logically consistent, I'm not sure that Astartes Chapters would be happy to let individual Space Marines leave if their ideas don't match anymore. If this started to become an issue, I think the Marine in question would just be taken for some more psycho-doctrination. It might be better to have an Inquisitor convince a Chapter's leadership cadre of the 'rightness' of going by the Radical route and then the Chapter Master convinces the rest of the Chapter.
If you like, here's an idea. Of course if you don't like it feel free to ignore it! A Chapter takes heavy losses fighting against the forces of Chaos, maybe down to the equivalent of 2/2.5 Companies. They retire to thier fortress-monastery to recoup their losses and an Inquisitor joins them who has been fighting in the same conflict, his/her group purging the corrupted nobility of the planet's capital hive. The Inquisitor has come to the conclusion that the best way to destroy Chaos is with Chaos after witnessing the power of the Chaos Sorcerers and, seeing the badly mauled Chapter thinks that he can recruit them to his/her way of thinking. So as the Chapter gains new recruits they are trained with this new Radical mindset. This could give you a potential plot-hook/point as the veterans who survived the Chaos invasion are unsure as to wether they want to go with this new direction.
Anyway, I hope this helps you and doesn't distract you too much!

GFP
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-01-09, 03:41 PM
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for the most part, your idea isn't against the fluff in anyway. lets break it down:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedrial View Post
Basically, the army is a "chapter" of Space Marines
GW use the term 'chapter' in three different ways:
1) a specific form of subdivision of a Space Marine Legion.
2) a specific organisation as defined by the Codex Astartes, displaying key attributes, including having a single geneseed and founding, following the tactical advice of the C:A and having a high percentage of Officers, but specifically NCOs. this form of Chapter is modelled on the previous.
3) a honorific epithet given to Imperial SM organisations that do not follow either of the two above definitions and are thus not chapters in any real sense. this is largely due to the fact that Imperial law states that all Marines must be part of a Chapter as defined by the C:A, but this is difficult to police and not a very political intelligent move to police it too far anyway. thus the term is often used in the phrase 'non-codex Chapter', in an attempt to differentiate between real chapters and other forms of organisation.

all three definitions are quite specific and provide certain limitations to what can and can't be true of them. from the sounds of it, you are suggesting a group as defined by 2, that has become a group as defined by 3 (or not defined as might be more appropriate).

the problem is that 3's are not made from 2's.

that would imply that the chapter has been founded and then rebelled against Imperial law, which, by anyone's standard, is enough to get you put on the blacklist. the only way a 3 would come into being is if it was specifically created that way, with the aknowledgement of the Imperial government (if not their permission).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedrial View Post
who view the Codex Astartes as too limiting, and seek a more open minded (some might say, radical) approach to dealing with the enemies of the Imperium.
lets not forget that the Codex: Astartes was written by a Space Marine for Space Marines. it was deliberately designed to be easily accessable by all marines and be helpful in all situations. the majority of ojbections to it stem from the fact that it ties marines to a system that prevents them from opperating in the personality cults that the Legions had grown used to. chapters have less personality and are more closely monitored than Legions were. hence several Legions chose to simply ignore the demands of the C:A, and a number of Chapters since have been soggy with nostaglia for the 'old days'.

i can't think of any 'official' Chapters that have rejected the dictats of the C:A after there creation (save those from the 2nd Founding, who are of course the same marines as the 1st Founding).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedrial View Post
Thus, this "chapter" has alligned itself with an Inquisitor who shares their view that the only way to truely defeat the enemies of the Imperium is to turn their own weapons against them (a Radical). Now, this Inquisitor, while a Radical, is an Oblationist, believing that the the daemon, the psyker, and the xeno are evil, but recognizing that some must sacrifice themselves in using these evil means to protect the Imperium.
to be entirely honest, that is fairly standard fair. its not hugely imaginative or clever, and its a little irksome to imagine that the Inquisition and Astartes are really all that close or willing to be allies, but if its what you're going for then there's no real issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedrial View Post
Now, that being said, here's my question. Would it be fluffy for the Space Marines that make up this chapter to come from a mix of existing chapters?
not if you are still imagining them to be the 2nd kind of Chapter. that is a club that is tied together by genetics and is near impossible to leave. even CSM don't much like switching between chapters (Fabius Bile and Ahriman haven't had much to do with their Legions since the Heresy, yet are still very much a part of them). Chapters (and Legions for that matter) are familial groups and one can't simply abandon them, just because they are no longer in favour. in fact as you rightly point out, if you were to attempt to change your 'Chapter' you will likely recieve a death sentence.

however, it's perfectly possible for someone to be other part of a Chapter and of a non-standard SM organisation, similar to the Death Watch (though with a different purpose), and still be regarded as loyal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedrial View Post
Can Space Marines who drastically disagree with the Codex Astartes leave their chapter without the penalty of death?
one would have thought not. in fact drastically disagreeing with the tome might land you in hot water unless you of the most venerable nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedrial View Post
While I'm sure some chapters would support doing this, and might very well see seconding or permanently assigning some of their Marines to this chapter as a high honor, I could see some more traditional chapters being utterly opposed to the idea, going so far as to execute any who abandon their chapter.
i can't personally see why it would ever be supported or even considered an honour. SM Chapters are highly insular and if nothing else could not afford the loss of geneseed (as they are not able to replicate it themselves).

what strikes me as more likely (and a more interesting story to boot), is if you chapter was a front for another, altogether more subversive organisation. to illustrate; imagine the Doom Strikers chapter, who have become increasingly disappointed by the restrictions placed on them by beligerant imperial commanders who are all too human, and use the C:A as a way of trapping them. after a particularly successful campaign, which they led, they formed a brotherhood of sorts, which only the most deserving members (of any chapter) were invited into. this would be seen as an honor and in no way threatening to the security of the recruited Chapters. however, the brotherhood is simply a secret society for those disatisfied with the current system of human oppression. they work together openly as a team, but their goals are hidden from everyone but the most astute.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-02-09, 08:22 AM
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Having re-read my post, I actually think I may have been slightly hypocritical. I say anything goes, and then say your idea probably doesn't! What I should have said was that to make your idea logically consistent will take a lot of work, moreso than the idea I put down.
All I would really like to add, is that it is the execution of the idea that is the key. The more outlandish, or more counter-40k-'verse, the idea the greater the difficulty in executing the idea well. As fluffists, to coin a phrase, we should be aiming at more than a hand-wave and 'the warp/an Inquisitor did it' to power the ideas into life. One thing about the original idea you put in the OP is that it will really stretch your fluff-muscles to make it work! Have at it!

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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-02-09, 08:42 AM
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Thats not anti-fluff at all. In fact aside fro Deathwatch there is a Space Marines chapter called the Exorcists (I used to play them). They were created by the Inquisition for the sole purpose of fighting Chaos. However, here's the catch. The Inquisition would posses the bodies of the marines with Demons. The Space Marines would then have to "exorcise" the demons out of them, hence the name Exorcists. So I mean that's some radical stuff.

So go wild man, the galaxy is the limit.

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