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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-20-09, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Thousand Sons Dreadnoughts/Sorcerer Lords

I have two questions for you.

Firstly, we all know how insane, and thus not-exactly-useful Chaos Dreadnoughts are. But what if it is a Thousand Son Dreadnought? Their Marines turned into Rubric Marines, emotionless automatons thanks to Ahriman, we know that; but what happened to the Dreadnoughts? It is only logical to assume that they too ended up being brainwashed and telepathically linked to their sorcerer brethren. However, I couldn't find a single note or hint on this in the CSM codex, nor on Lexicanum. My question is: were the Thousand Sons' Dreadnoughts affected by the Rubric of Ahriman? Why/why not? Is there a possibility that this might recieve some attention by GW, or is it not worth it?

Secondly, there was something odd in the CSM codex. On page 70, there is a picture of a "Sorcerer Lord" of The Scourged; six pages later, he is called a "Sorcerer in Terminator Armour" by the army list. I immediately checked the codex's article on Sorcerers and Chaos Lords, and it seems that having a Sorcerer Lord is not possible: you can have either a Chaos Lord, or a Sorcerer, though the Terminator Armour is possible for both. However, in the Chaos Lord article, there are a few sentences on the Champion of Tzeentch, which hints that a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch is a potent magic user. What bugs me is that even though there is this bit of fluff, you can't buff your Tzeentchian Chaos Lord with any spell at all, not even a Doombolt. My question: is the title "Sorcerer Lord" true only fluff-wise (which means that technically hes still a Sorcerer, he just happens to be the boss around, but then why call him a Sorcerer Lord??)? Would it be a stupid idea/out of place to give a Tzeentchian Chaos Lord a spell or two?

The fool, the coward, and the ignorant proclaim that the warp is a realm of unknowable peril and indescribable terror, that it is the hell of countless ancient myths and legends. This is a lie, told by those whose authority is based on lies, to keep the masses terrified of the unknown. The warp is limitless power and its secrets are infinite; it is knowledge and strength, life and death, and the untapped potential to make and remake worlds. It takes only the discipline and the will to shape it; those who lack that clarity of purpose are liable to be shaped by it instead.

- Ahzek Ahriman of the Thousand Sons
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-20-09, 01:30 PM
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For the first question I'm afraid I can't help you. However, the second question is much easier to answer. Being a sorceror used to be an upgrade for chaos lieutenants and lords, it wasn't a separate HQ choice and Tzeentch sorceror lords were the most potent because they always passed every psychic test automatically. Or it's just a typo.

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-20-09, 02:29 PM
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not sure on the first but i think the rubican will of worked on the dreads too. the second one i think it would depend on what you give as wargear. you can have a sorcerer in TA and leave him bog standard or you can give him mark of tzeench and a familiar as well and turn him into a crazy sorcerer. as one is better than the other you could make the distinction.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-20-09, 02:54 PM
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Question 1: No idea... but that can also depend on the amount of psyker abilities the guy in the dreadnaught once had. (Are there sorcerer-dreadnaughts?)
Anyway, if he was strong enough, maybe he got out of the Rubrics power... and probably became insane, like most others.
The others would probably be automatons, in my opinion.

Question 2: Conflicting fluff and rules, ftw!
Yes, Tzeentchey-belonging Chaos Lords should have at least some spells... I mean, come on! They're serving TZEENTCH!!!

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-20-09, 04:30 PM
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Who's to say the ones in the Thousand Sons dreadnought or even any other Thousand Sons vehicle are not Automatons you can't tell me that their all sorcerers. I also have a feeling that some chaos lords did not want to wait for a half dead guy so they could have a Chaos Dreads they could have easily just forced someone inside as a form of punishment as chaos marines do not find it to be honorable to be a dreadnought. It is also extremely rare to have a traitor legion dreadnought that has survived from the days of the Horus Heresy so you could easily say that the Thousand Sons didn't have any more and any of the ones that they built after the Heresy may have had a slave or some other marine placed inside one. In the previous codex you could have daemonic possession as an upgrade for chaos dread if that were still possible you could easily say that your Thousand Sons dreadnought was effected by the Rubricon; but then it would still have the Crazed special rule and I don't think that would be very fitting for a Rubric Dreadnought; but maybe a Rubric Dreadnought is a creation of a rubric marine being fused inside a dreadnought and daemons slip in with it and the soul of the Rubric marine is tortured by daemons and that's why it would have Crazed. Oh and I find Chaos Dreads useful; but I use a dreadclaw to drop mine in someones backyard.

Jackinator has part of the 2nd question covered with reference to the previous codex and who cares if a Tzeencth Lord doesn't have any spells. Mark of Tzeentch doesn't mean sorcerer powers are a given even thou it did in the previous codex; but Tzeentch could have said no you're a better servant without them. Now Thousand Sons leaders are all Sorcerers so if your running a Thousand Sons list only then you shouldn't be running anything else otherwise. Ah now I wish I could have Rubric Terminators again they would probably be so awesome right now *sigh
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-20-09, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
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I consider question 2 answered by the posts of Jackinator and imintdead, and I share Tau22's feelings on the topic.

However, the issue of TS Dreadnoughts is far not concluded in my opinion.

If you look carefully, you find that the effects of the Rubric of Ahriman are not all too detailed. I quote:

"The results were not what Ahriman wanted, much less expected. The Thousand Sons were now safe from the taint of chaos, but at a terrible price. Those who had psychic powers were greatly strengthened. But those who hadn’t had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their souls were damned to live inside their armour forever, changing most of the legion into Rubric Marines; little more than mindless ghosts."
(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thousand_Sons)

This hints that not only the Marines were affected by the spell, but the Legion as a whole. Now you could argue that not every Marine had his PA on when the spell was cast, but you could rightfully say that such minor issues are of little concern to the Lord of Change. The supporting crew, who were not Marines at all? They're not relevant neither to the spell, nor the concerns of Ahriman; he was interested in saving his brothers, not the maggots serving them. Tank crew? Well, since they're waring PA too (correct me here if I'm wrong, I'm bluffing to be honest ), the effects of the Rubric should apply to them as well (technically, you could treat the crew as Rubric Marines).

But what happened to the Dreadnoughts? It would certainly raise an eyebrow that they were the only ones who were not affected by Ahriman's sorcery. Consequently, they too had the remains of their bodies turned into dust, their will bent to that of their sorcerers and their emotions dulled/torn out from them. This logically means that Thousand Son Dreadnoughts should not have the Crazed rule, for this very reason. I wouldn't consider this game-braking or anything, since GW could easily make the restriction that they could only be deployed in a Thousand Son army that has a Sorcerer or a Tzeentchian Chaos Lord.

What do you think?

The fool, the coward, and the ignorant proclaim that the warp is a realm of unknowable peril and indescribable terror, that it is the hell of countless ancient myths and legends. This is a lie, told by those whose authority is based on lies, to keep the masses terrified of the unknown. The warp is limitless power and its secrets are infinite; it is knowledge and strength, life and death, and the untapped potential to make and remake worlds. It takes only the discipline and the will to shape it; those who lack that clarity of purpose are liable to be shaped by it instead.

- Ahzek Ahriman of the Thousand Sons
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-20-09, 07:39 PM
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Arn't Dreads normally Kept in stasis fields which as far as i can discern remove the object within from the normal passage of time so it could be fair to say that the spell may not have affected them.

secondly you could have it that the Rubic affected them and that the soul of the occupant is still in the throes of pain inflicted on it by the "pain divice", i can't remember the term used in the codex but it is mentioned that the pilots of Chaos dreads are kept in constant pain when not hardwired into the dreads body. this could be in the 3rd ed codex CS im not sure.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-20-09, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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From what I remember from the CSM codex I have (which seems to be the newest one, since it says the exact same things as everyone else's) they are simply kept outside of their Dreadnoughts, in a tube that keeps them alive but "offline", in a coma-like state. When the Chaos fleet nears its target, the Dreadnoughts weapons are armed and filled with ammo, and the pilot is put in, and by the time the gets DS-ed to the battlefield, hes fully awake... and pissed. The Dreadnought itself is chained, in fear of some remnant of the pilot's soul is still inside, but theres no mention of the machine being anywhere more special than a hangar... If there were any mention of a pain device or anything of the like, I'm sure I'd remember it. I'd look it up, but I don't have it on me right now. Could anyone clarify this?

About your second argument... well... firstly, I'm not trying to find a logical explanation for why TS Dreadnoughts have the Crazed rule; quite the opposite, they shouldn't have it at all in my opinion. Secondly, the Rubric did the same to everyone, as it is described in the link I quoted from and posted above. And I don't see why should it have a different effect on Dreadnoughts. It doesn't seem logical to me.

The fool, the coward, and the ignorant proclaim that the warp is a realm of unknowable peril and indescribable terror, that it is the hell of countless ancient myths and legends. This is a lie, told by those whose authority is based on lies, to keep the masses terrified of the unknown. The warp is limitless power and its secrets are infinite; it is knowledge and strength, life and death, and the untapped potential to make and remake worlds. It takes only the discipline and the will to shape it; those who lack that clarity of purpose are liable to be shaped by it instead.

- Ahzek Ahriman of the Thousand Sons
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-21-09, 12:53 AM
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the crazed rule really blows dosent it. here you go guys heres a nice fluffy unit, btw its crazed and as such compleatly useless, its worse than kharn the betrayer for killing its own side.
i think the 3 i have here will probly never get built or painted fully again. if i do it will only be because i like the mini.

you would think that a chaos marine that has been made more powerful and given a bigger gun would be slap happy about it, especially if hes carrying on the work of the dark gods rather than being a cripple on the battle barge.

the thousand sons are a prime example why we need a chaos legions book, there one of the most deviant armys in the entire 40k universe ffs.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-21-09, 04:34 AM
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for the first question it's really 50 50. i don't think any of the vechiles belonging to Thousands Sons became automaton because they already were, and they have no brain. So Thousands Sons Dreadnoughts might be too much machine to be affected. That being said, every thinking marine was turned into automaton besides the ones with warp powers, so maybe they were incased in their armour. If they had psykic abilities then no and they would have been heaps more powerful.

For the second one i think a tzeench Chaos lord should be able to have Psykic powers. To have survived the Rubric without being turned into automaton must have meant he was a Sorcerer, and it wouldn't make sense he just forgot how to use psykic powers once he became a Lord.

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