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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-08-13, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Have you ever read the story of 300? Instead of going by the hollywood version?

Before this movie did you even know that there was 1100 other soldiers there? You know why you didn't? Because it's the story of 300 who stood against millions. For every second they delayed xerxes history changed. It's as simple as that.
Yea, i'm familiar with the Persian Wars; ie 'the story of 300'.

1100 other soliders? That's an oddly specific (and incorrect) number. Yes i knew there were other (thousands of) Greek soldiers at Thermoplyae, most of whom were ordered away after the Persians flanked their position and Leonidas embarked on his last stand.

It really wasn't 300 against millions. You even say so yourself in the previous line. Modern scholars agree that Xerxes' army was, at most, in the hundred thousand range. No army in antiquity was ever, or could ever, number in the millions.

As i said previously Thermopylae was strategically unimportant. The goal wasn't to dely Xerxes but to stop him, and they failed. It wasn't the allied states intention to let him ravage Attica and Boeotia. Their defeat left them scrambling for a new plan and resulted in the battle at Salamis, where they won a decisive victory over the Persian navy and forced Xerxes to withdraw the bulk of his army from Greece. The remainder was later defeated at Plataea. History (and the course of the war) didn't change every moment the Spartans held on.

Don't get me wrong, it's inspiring and courageous, but strategically, when in comes down to it, it was a Greek failure and insignificant ( in fact detrimental) to the course of the war.

Also it's pretty rude to presume what i do and don't know and to tell me what i don't know. As it turns out i have a degree in ancient history, so yea, i think maybe i know about the Battle of Thermopylae

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Exactly and the sequel will be the same, just like Spartacus. That's the reason why I will watch it.
The Spartacus tv series from starz? It's great isn't it, fantastic mindless entertainment. I love their dialogue, it's a clever way to give the impression of latin.

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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-08-13, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rems View Post
Yea, i'm familiar with the Persian Wars; ie 'the story of 300'.

1100 other soliders? That's an oddly specific (and incorrect) number. Yes i knew there were other (thousands of) Greek soldiers at Thermoplyae, most of whom were ordered away after the Persians flanked their position and Leonidas embarked on his last stand.

It really wasn't 300 against millions. You even say so yourself in the previous line. Modern scholars agree that Xerxes' army was, at most, in the hundred thousand range. No army in antiquity was ever, or could ever, number in the millions.

As i said previously Thermopylae was strategically unimportant. The goal wasn't to dely Xerxes but to stop him, and they failed. It wasn't the allied states intention to let him ravage Attica and Boeotia. Their defeat left them scrambling for a new plan and resulted in the battle at Salamis, where they won a decisive victory over the Persian navy and forced Xerxes to withdraw the bulk of his army from Greece. The remainder was later defeated at Plataea. History (and the course of the war) didn't change every moment the Spartans held on.

Don't get me wrong, it's inspiring and courageous, but strategically, when in comes down to it, it was a Greek failure and insignificant ( in fact detrimental) to the course of the war.

Also it's pretty rude to presume what i do and don't know and to tell me what i don't know. As it turns out i have a degree in ancient history, so yea, i think maybe i know about the Battle of Thermopylae



The Spartacus tv series from starz? It's great isn't it, fantastic mindless entertainment. I love their dialogue, it's a clever way to give the impression of latin.


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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-08-13, 11:04 PM
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The Immortals have to be the all-time winners of the Most Inaptly Named Military Unit award...

...definitely gonna go watch this, though. And only four days to Pacific Rim :D


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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-08-13, 11:15 PM
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i liked 300 and the nigh immortal we are spartans line, gerrard butler certainly pulled it off, and the efores ugh! so i might take a look at this but pacific rim and wolverine are more promising.

I also read up on ancient history at school,, what was an attempt at a delaying tactic did not work and 300 spartans lost thier lives attempting to halt the persians for a time. I suppose given the animosity between Athens and Sparta it depends on who is telling the story really.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-09-13, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rems View Post
Yea, i'm familiar with the Persian Wars; ie 'the story of 300'.

1100 other soliders? That's an oddly specific (and incorrect) number. Yes i knew there were other (thousands of) Greek soldiers at Thermoplyae, most of whom were ordered away after the Persians flanked their position and Leonidas embarked on his last stand.

It really wasn't 300 against millions. You even say so yourself in the previous line. Modern scholars agree that Xerxes' army was, at most, in the hundred thousand range. No army in antiquity was ever, or could ever, number in the millions.

As i said previously Thermopylae was strategically unimportant. The goal wasn't to dely Xerxes but to stop him, and they failed. It wasn't the allied states intention to let him ravage Attica and Boeotia. Their defeat left them scrambling for a new plan and resulted in the battle at Salamis, where they won a decisive victory over the Persian navy and forced Xerxes to withdraw the bulk of his army from Greece. The remainder was later defeated at Plataea. History (and the course of the war) didn't change every moment the Spartans held on.

Don't get me wrong, it's inspiring and courageous, but strategically, when in comes down to it, it was a Greek failure and insignificant ( in fact detrimental) to the course of the war.

Also it's pretty rude to presume what i do and don't know and to tell me what i don't know. As it turns out i have a degree in ancient history, so yea, i think maybe i know about the Battle of Thermopylae



The Spartacus tv series from starz? It's great isn't it, fantastic mindless entertainment. I love their dialogue, it's a clever way to give the impression of latin.
I'm talking about the final battle for thermopyle. When there was 1400 soldiers left for rear guard and the spartans stayed behind to let the 1100 get away.

We're talking about a battle that happened thousands of years ago. The exact reason why the spartans stayed is lost to us. Greeks are know to add flavor to their stories.
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-09-13, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by gothik View Post
i liked 300 and the nigh immortal we are spartans line, gerrard butler certainly pulled it off, and the efores ugh! so i might take a look at this but pacific rim and wolverine are more promising.

I also read up on ancient history at school,, what was an attempt at a delaying tactic did not work and 300 spartans lost thier lives attempting to halt the persians for a time. I suppose given the animosity between Athens and Sparta it depends on who is telling the story really.
Interestingly enough it was actually the Athenians who came up with the strategy to bottle the Persians up at Thermopylae. The idea was for the Greek forces there, under the command of Leonidas to hold the Persian's there whilst the Athenians led the Greeks at sea to hold up the Persian fleet. They hoped to halt them long enough to force Xerxes to retreat his army, it being too large to live off the land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
I'm talking about the final battle for thermopyle. When there was 1400 soldiers left for rear guard and the spartans stayed behind to let the 1100 get away.

We're talking about a battle that happened thousands of years ago. The exact reason why the spartans stayed is lost to us. Greeks are know to add flavor to their stories.
It's quite possible to infer why the Spartan's stayed. For one they needed to buy time for the others (of which there are closer to 10,000 than 1000) to escape. Being flanked if they had all tried to flee they would have been cought and killed. Secondly there's the Spartan ethos of never surrendering or taking a backwards step in battle. Leonidas was one of the few Spartan kings who went through the agoge; the mandatory military and civic training for all spartan youths. He, like the rest of his men, would have had the Spartan ethos and culture drilled into him. From such a perspective it would be natural to volunteer himself and his Spartans as the rearguard. It would have been expected of them.

But what are you getting at? What's your point?

Previously you said Thermopylae was a history defining moment, of great importance to the war. I then argued how it really isn't. You haven't addressed the points i raised. Are you conceding i'm right? Clarify for me.


As an aside can i recommend to anyone reading that if you're intending on getting into a debate on history (or really any field) at least do a simple wikipedia search. It's a great tool for broadening your knowledge, just be careful of citations.

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