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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-22-12, 09:19 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

"As logical fallacy

Moving the goalposts, also known as raising the bar, is an informal logically fallacious argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. In other words, after a goal has been scored, the goalposts are moved farther to discount the attempt. This attempts to leave the impression that an argument had a fair hearing while actually reaching a preordained conclusion."

You can't keep moving the goalposts. At first, your argument is that women act dumb. Now your argument is that the female characters either act too feminine or not feminine enough. Change of criteria? Bones doesn't count because she doesn't have strong emotions or care about relationships. Angela doesn't count because she does have strong emotions and does care about relationships. What the hell?

Buffy is a far less serious show and takes itself far less seriously than Bones or NCIS. A certain degree of humorous satire is expected. It does nothing to undermine that the female characters are all competent, in almost all cases more competent than the male characters.

As for house, Cuddy does her best but does get bullied by House. News flash: House is bullying everyone in that show. Just because one of his victims happens to be female doesn't mean that that character is automatically a gibbering pile of wuss juice. Any of house's understudies that happen to be female are just as competent as the male ones.

Characters aren't mary-sues in American media, at least not usually. They all have flaws and shortcomings. Thats what makes them characters worth watching.

I seriously can't believe thats your issue. The goal has changed from "Intelligence and competence" to "Feminine but not feminine".


Last edited by Iron Angel; 04-22-12 at 09:30 PM.
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-22-12, 09:41 PM
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Ok how about Serenity/Firefly then? The female characters in that are about as fucked up as the men.
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-22-12, 10:24 PM
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Fits real life then. *homerun*

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 12:47 AM
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This is fairly easy. The general populace in America equates both Humor and Beauty with stupidity. A good example of this would be "That 70's show". The best looking characters, both male and female, are stupid. They also happen to be some of the most amusing characters in the show. This model is used throughout American television sitcoms (i.e. Friends), which are the primary shows that Americans watch. Prime candidates for shows with intelligent women are, in general, more serious, and therefore boring in general (see any American soap opera). The final category you have is Syfy, which has already been brought up and discussed in this thread. For your purposes, that is probably the happy medium that you are looking for (Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, etc.).


......Oh additionally, evil women are also almost always more intelligent (which I guess is another social commentary on American society).

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 01:11 AM
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Oh, and by the way, if Jack Bauer is so f'ing badass, then how in the hell is he dumb enough to get kidnapped three times in the same day? Ever see MacGyver get kidnapped more than once a day? Hell no. And half the time he did it on purpose to help someone escape. *End Rant*

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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPT Killjoy View Post
This is fairly easy. The general populace in America equates both Humor and Beauty with stupidity. A good example of this would be "That 70's show". The best looking characters, both male and female, are stupid. They also happen to be some of the most amusing characters in the show. This model is used throughout American television sitcoms (i.e. Friends), which are the primary shows that Americans watch. Prime candidates for shows with intelligent women are, in general, more serious, and therefore boring in general (see any American soap opera). The final category you have is Syfy, which has already been brought up and discussed in this thread. For your purposes, that is probably the happy medium that you are looking for (Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, etc.).


......Oh additionally, evil women are also almost always more intelligent (which I guess is another social commentary on American society).
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Originally Posted by CPT Killjoy View Post
Oh, and by the way, if Jack Bauer is so f'ing badass, then how in the hell is he dumb enough to get kidnapped three times in the same day? Ever see MacGyver get kidnapped more than once a day? Hell no. And half the time he did it on purpose to help someone escape. *End Rant*
And "BOOM" the Dynamite! LOL

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 07:30 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Angel View Post
You can't keep moving the goalposts. At first, your argument is that women act dumb. Now your argument is that the female characters either act too feminine or not feminine enough. Change of criteria? Bones doesn't count because she doesn't have strong emotions or care about relationships. Angela doesn't count because she does have strong emotions and does care about relationships. What the hell?
Well you could take the view that I am moving the goalposts, or you could consider that I am either developing my argument as it goes along, expanding it to fit new information, or that I am making a larger argument about the representation of women in the media on a general level. You can take that as a personal affront which your tone seems to indicate, or you can continue to chat with me about the topic as it unfolds and I develop my thinking/line of argument.

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Buffy is a far less serious show and takes itself far less seriously than Bones or NCIS. A certain degree of humorous satire is expected. It does nothing to undermine that the female characters are all competent, in almost all cases more competent than the male characters.
So leaving specific examples aside, do you believe that conforming to and reinforcing gender steretypes is acceptable if it is done in the name of humour? Along the same lines, do you find stereotypical jokes about minorities to be acceptable? (How do you get 50 Africans into a phone box? Throw in a can of beans. How do you get them out again? Walk past with a tin opener etc etc.)

The above is an additional side argument, not me "moving the goalposts" as you put it.

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As for house, Cuddy does her best but does get bullied by House. News flash: House is bullying everyone in that show.
Which I already mentioned:

Quote:
Admittedly the whole point is that House overrules everyone regardless of gender
Quote:
Just because one of his victims happens to be female doesn't mean that that character is automatically a gibbering pile of wuss juice. Any of house's understudies that happen to be female are just as competent as the male ones.
Cuddy's job is to be in charge. She is patently not in charge, ergo she is failing at her job. Why is she failing at her job? Because her emotional feelings get in the way of her controlling House effectively. If that isn't a regurgitated argument as to why women are unable to hold positions of power, I don't know what is. If she had been written as a male character, House would either have had to be fired by the end of series 1, or s/he would have had to resign in acknowlegement that they were not doing their job. A "manly" ego would not accept constant belittling by a subordinate.

Let's leave aside the idea of professional competance in this case (or alternatively amend my original statement, whichever you prefer) and examine the secondary plot lines.

Cameron (a woman) has plot lines that revolve exclusively around her being too much of a bleeding heart, and caring too much.

Chase (a man) has plot lines that revolve around him chasing Cameron, and angry issues with his Dad/family, which is a nice manly thing to do.

Foreman (a man) has plot lines that revolve around him trying to get promoted and succeed in his career. This is seen as logical and admirable, even if he fucks it up.

Amber (a woman) also has plot lines around advancing her career, but she is labelled as a "cut throat bitch" because of it. It is a negative aspect of her character that she wants to succeed.

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I seriously can't believe thats your issue. The goal has changed from "Intelligence and competence" to "Feminine but not feminine".
It hasn't changed, it's just taken other factors into account. So under the overall umbrella of "Women in the Media" I asked the question "Are all female characters inept?". The answer was "Some are, but also some are capable in their jobs". To which I can then ask the question "But are they treated fairly/equally to the men in terms of their plot material?" to which the answer appears to be "Sometimes, but not often". Of course I welcome further contributions from anyone interested.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.

Last edited by Sethis; 04-23-12 at 07:32 AM.
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 11:05 AM
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please tell me no one ACTUALLY watches Jersey Shore on this forum

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 11:33 AM
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I have to agree with Sethis.

SPOILERS FOR WALKING DEAD!!!


In The Walking Dead, which I adored until I realized this, every time a woman does something she fucks it up and needs a man to save her. When Laurie drives, boom, she crashes and Shane has to come save her. The kid that runs in to the forest and later gets eaten? A girl. And the ONE woman in the show who is strong still needed a man to save her. Andrea was going to kill herself, and she needed a man to talk her out of it. EDIT: Oh, and I forgot Hershell's daughter had to be saved by Glenn as well.



SPOILERS OVER
And please don't even try to use Firefly as an example. I love the show to death, but one of the only strong females in it is constantly referred to as "whore", and the other strong female is a good little soldier and always does what Mal tells her to.

I don't that Buffy is a good example for either side of the discussion, yeah, I see you're point on the most powerful female in the show losing control, but Buffy rescues Angel, Spike and Xander more times than I can count, while not turning in to a dude with breasts.

And Grey's Anatomy, are you kidding? I only got half way through it because I thought it was utter crap, so maybe it changed later on, but it seemed incredibly sexist to me. ANd that's a no to Bones. As far as I can remember the only two competent women in that show were Bones and Camille. Bones was a heartless bitch for most of it, and Camille... Well actually as far as I can remember Camille was actually decent AND competent. Weird combo for an American drama.
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 12:00 PM
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Homeland - Main character strong, intelligent woman (albeit medicated)
Dark Angel - Max was kick ass
The Sarah Connor Chronicles - Main character again, strong, intelligent woman.
Voyager - Janeway, 7 of 9, Belanna.
Any CSI or NCIS excluding the victims!

I agree on the Walking Dead comments, I was close to shouting at the TV at times due to the stupidity of some of the female characters.

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Last edited by Durant; 04-23-12 at 12:02 PM.
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