Eldar Nightwing in a Nightfight (Shrouded and Stealth) - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-09-12, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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Default Eldar Nightwing in a Nightfight (Shrouded and Stealth)

Situation is this:

An Eldar Nightwing flying is using "Evade", because the Nightwing flyer is naturally under the effect of "Shrouded" he now has a 3+ cover save (5+ with a -2 modifier)

If it was also Nightfight and the the Nightwing was at the 24"-36" range, he would not benefit from Shrouded because it is already under the effect of Shrouded and thus remain a 3+ Evasion cover save (5+ with a -2 modifier). But if the Nightwing was at the 12"-24" rage, it would now benefit from Stealth in addition to its personal Shrouded and it would now have a 2+ Evasion cover save (5+ with a -2 modifier and a -1 modifier).

Anything I'm missing?

I'm going to email this to Forgeworld for consideration.

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Last edited by Desolatemm; 07-09-12 at 04:53 PM.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-09-12, 04:32 PM
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Shrouded and stealth do stack according to page 41/42. "Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save.)"
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-09-12, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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psactionman,
That is not the issue. The title may have confused you, but the post is clear if you read it. Title changed. Shrouded and stealth obviously stack and that is presented in the OP. The issue is that the current Shrouded (It always has it) rule does not make sense on the Nightwing because a Nightwing gets a Worse cover save at 24-36" than it does at 12"-24". It is not consistent and so I brought it up. This is a case of Shrouded + Shrouded which does not stack to a -4 modifier, but Shrouded + Stealth does stack to a -3 modifier.

Once again, the issue is an Evading Nightwing in a Nightfight gets a 2+ cover save at 12"-24" (Evade 5+ cover -2 shrouded -1 stealth) and a 3+ cover save at 24"-36" (Evade 5+ cover -2 Shrouded)

It just doesn't make sense.

An Evading Nighwing in a Nightfight.... That sounds funny as is

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-09-12, 05:02 PM
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Well, now that you point it out I feel pretty stupid for missing that...
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-09-12, 06:47 PM
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In this case you get better protection from being 12-24" away than 24-36" away because you cannot get the same USR twice

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-09-12, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Exactly, how does that make sense? It doesn't and I don't think they intended for that to happen. Emailed Forgeworld concerning this. Will post reply when it comes, if it comes.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-09-12, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolatemm View Post
Exactly, how does that make sense? It doesn't and I don't think they intended for that to happen. Emailed Forgeworld concerning this. Will post reply when it comes, if it comes.
Did you get one of those automated emails concerning their higher than normal email load too?

I'm curious how they sort this out to be honest. Maybe they'll change it so it has Stealth instead of Shrouded?
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-09-12, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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I did get their automated email, but then again, I always get that automated email regardless of when it is sent. It is their standard reply indicating that they have received the email. I emailed them a couple days before the FAQ went out and they responded within the day I sent it.

More than likely it will either be a clarification that it stacks with other things that grant the Shrouded special rule. Or it will be a new stand-alone rule that grands a -2 modifier so it can be stacked. Either of these would work, but the current "Shrouded" rule does not work because of Nightfight so they have to change something.

Another interesting case is the Harlequin troupe with a Shadow Seer. They have the Veil of Tears which grants the Shrouded and Stealth special rules. They do not benefit from night fight at all. 5th ed you needed to roll for night fight AND veil of tears. The only difference now is that they are still Under Shroud and Stealth at closer ranges. But at least theirs doesn't get WORSE the farther they are lol.

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-11-12, 05:08 AM Thread Starter
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So I emails the issue to Forge World. The following is my transation with them.
To Forge World:
Quote:
Title:
This concerns the Eldar Nightwing and Eldar Phoenix bomber.

"The Shrouded special rule included on the profile of these vehicles replaces the Eldar Titan Holo Fields rule included in their original profiles."

How does this function during a Night-fight? at the 12"-24" range a Nightwing will benefit from Its personal Shrouded special rule in addition to the Stealth special rule. However, at 24"-36" the Nighwing will only benefit from the either its personal Shrouded or the Shrouded granted by Nightfight.

Another situation:
If a Flyer uses "Evade", it temporarily benefits from the "Jink" special rule. Lets assume it has not moved flat out and will receive a 5+ cover save. Because the Nightwing and Phoenix Bomber have the "Shrouded" Special rule, they will receive a -2 modifier to become a 3+ cover save. During a nightfight, this cover save would be modified by Stealth to become a 2+ cover save at 12"-24", but remain a 3+ cover save at 24"-36"

In order to maintain consistency, I recommend the rule grant a flat 2 modifier to cover saves via it own unique rule thus it can be combined with shrouded (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save). It can also be resolved by a clarification that the personal Shrouded ability stacks with other situations what would grant the Shrouded special rule.

Thank you
From Forge World:
Quote:
Hi,

Thanks for your e-mail. As specified in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, the benefits of Stealth and Shrouded stack to a maximum of a 2+ cover save, but the Nightwing's Shrouded does not stack with the Night Fight Shrouded, were it at the relevant range.

The Jink special rule, as stated in the rulebook, does not stack with either Shrouded or Stealth.

In such a situation, simply work out what combination would provide the best Invulnerable save and proceed accordingly; either Shrouded, Shrouded + Stealth (based on the range in question) or Jink.

Regards
Forge World
To Forge World:
Quote:
Hello,

The response to my query is not correct or consistant with the Game Workshop 6th edition rulebook. The following it my response to the three statements made in the email I recieved.



1)

"As specified in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, the benefits of Stealth and Shrouded stack to a maximum of a 2+ cover save, but the Nightwing's Shrouded does not stack with the Night Fight Shrouded, were it at the relevant range."

This is consistance with the Game Workshop 6th edition rulebook.

Page 41 and 42 under the "Shrouded" and "Stealth" Special Rules states "Cover save bonuses from the Shouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save).

2)
"The Jink special rule, as stated in the rulebook, does not stack with either Shrouded or Stealth."

This is incorrect. The rulebook does not state that the "Shrouded" and/or "Stealth" Special rules do not stack with the Jink rule. Jink provides a 5+ cover save if a model has moved in the movement phase. Shrouded and Stealth confer a 1-2 bonus to any existing cover save. Please see the following references taken from the Games Workshop Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook Edition 6:

Page 41 of the Rulebook: Shrouded "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 2 points better than normal. Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it is in the open."

Page 42 of the Rulebook: Stealth "A unit that contains at least on model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1 point better than normal. Notat that this means that a model with the Stealth special rule always has a cover saveof at least 6+, even if it is in the open..."

Page 38 of the Rulebook: Jink "A model with this special rule that has moved in the Movement phase gainst a 5+ cover save until the start of its next Movement phase."

Page 81 of the Rulebook: Evade "...An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule..."

Page 124 of the Rulebook: Night Fighting "Units between 24"-36" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule."

None of these rules state that a Jink cover save cannot stack with the benefits of Stealth or Shrouded, regarless of their origin.

3)

"In such a situation, simply work out what combination would provide the best Invulnerable save and proceed accordingly; either Shrouded, Shrouded + Stealth (based on the range in question) or Jink."

We are talking about Cover saves, not Invulnerable saves. I would like this issue to be resolved by someone who knows the rules of this game.

Closing notes:

Jink and Shrouded/Stealth stack per the Rulebook, that is not the issue. The issue is that the current Shrouded special rule given to the Nightwing and Pheonix Bomber are not consistant with the current Rulebook. The intention of Nightfight is to offer better protection the farther away you are from a shooting unit. The cover save is intended to become better at 24-36 inches than it is at 12-24 inches. However, the current rule works oppositely. The Nightwing and Pheonix Bomber have a WORSE cover save the farther they are. This is not a question, this is how the game currently works. I am meerly suggesting that the rule be refined to be consistance with the Games Workshop Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook Edition 6. This can be achieved by stating that the Shouded ability given to the Nightwing and Pheonix Bomber stacks with the Shouded special rule confered by Nightfight. The best option is to create a unique rule with a unique name that makes cover saves 2 points better. I do not mean to offend anyone, but the response I recieved before did not address my concerns. Instead, the response presented a solution that incorrect. I just want to see this inconsistancy resolved for our gaming community.

Thank you for your time

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-The Count of Monte Cristo
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-11-12, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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I was just thinking, don't have the rulebook with me, but what restricts Shrouded from stacking with Shrouded?
Quote:
Page 41 Shrouded and Page 42 Stealth
"Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)."
Could this be interpreted to mean that Shrouded + Shrouded , Stealth + Stealth, and Shrouded + Stealth combinations are cumulative. It would make sense with the nightfight rules since it would still effect units that already have either the stealth of shrouded special rules. For example Scouts, Rangers, Harlequin Troupe, Nightwings, Pheonix Bombers, etc. This would be a simple solution to the problem and I cannot see any negatives or conflicts with this interpretation.

"Cover save bonuses (multiple) from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules (two separate special rules) are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)"

A unit with the Shrouded special rule that is also at 24"-36" range in a Night Fight would be in a Shrouded + Shrouded situation. So their cover save is improved by 4 points to a maximum of a 2+ cover save?

Please quote a page and the sentance(s) that disprove this.

Thoughts?

"Bide your time and hold out hope"
-The Count of Monte Cristo

Last edited by Desolatemm; 07-11-12 at 05:18 PM.
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