Thoughts on "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
General 40k This is the place to talk about everything related to Warhammer 40k.

 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-18-16, 01:28 AM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,028
Reputation: 94


Default

I wasn't articulating myself properly either. I couldn't understand what comparison was being drawn by leaving the starting point for the whole discussion, +1 shot per lasgun, out of the examples. I wasn't expecting to see the result I did based on your initial post but sure enough if I'm interpreting your math correctly FRFSRF is straight up better than shred thanks to the weight of dice. It makes sense that twin-linked is the clear winner though, seems to be the to-hit roll is the real bottleneck for wounds generated.

Do you still feel the same way about the order? I know it's a gong show of dice but that's kinda what Guard is all about.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Related Projects

Last edited by ntaw; 07-18-16 at 02:50 PM.
ntaw is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-18-16, 02:35 AM
Angryman
 
shaantitus's Avatar
shaantitus's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: A wretched hive of scum and villany. Actually PNG. Goddamn this place is a shithole.
Posts: 4,313
Reputation: 22


Default

I remember (this is a couple of years and an edition ago) that frfsrf was a killer in my gunline guard(traitors) games against meq. Ballpark a 50 man blob puts out 150 shots(slightly less due to sarges and special weapons) of which half will hit(75) of those a third will wound meq(25) and of those a third will fail save.(8.3) if there are special weapons in the squad(plasma I am looking at you) it becomes more effective, and you end up looking at the complete annihilation of a 10 man marine squad. Used to work pretty well for me. Personally I think frfsrf has its place and can be mighty effective. Not sure what has changed in the later edition and codexes but I plan to find out soon.

Sanity is for the weak.
'Evil will triumph because good is dumb.' Dark Helmet,Spaceballs
According to LUKEVALENTINE's test i am a diciple of khorne. Figures really.
shaantitus is offline  
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-20-16, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Fallen's Avatar
Fallen's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,674
Reputation: 19


Default

Ok, So I had to basically rewrite the entire spread sheet - since it came to my attention that without giving the sample sizes for generic rapid fire/FRFSRF and with rapid fire & FRFSRF that my argument (or theory...or whatever this is) was extremely void of information. Thanks @ntaw



----

Anyways this might be slightly redundant so forgive me if I sound boring here.

So our example shall be a 30man blob squad with sargents & special weapons being in the mix - resulting in 24 guardsmen with light guns.

NOTE all wounds are rounded down, so some of them will not appear to differ

Normal Shooting

With no modifiers (strait shooting against a T4 enemy)
Total of 24 shots = 12 hits = 4 wounds

Rerolls to hit (Twin-Linked)
Total of 24 shots = 18 hits = 6 wounds

Rerolls to Wound (Shred)
Total of 24 shots = 12 hits = 6 wounds

Rerolls to hit & wound (Twin-Linked & Shred)
Total of 24 shots = 18 hits = 10 wounds

----

Normal Shooting + Rapid Fire (or FRFSRF as it is the same effect)

With no modifiers (strait shooting against a T4 enemy)
Total of 48 shots = 24 hits = 8 wounds

Rerolls to hit (Twin-Linked)
Total of 48 shots = 36 hits = 12 wounds

Rerolls to Wound (Shred)
Total of 48 shots = 24 hits = 13 wounds

Rerolls to hit & wound (Twin-Linked & Shred)
Total of 48 shots = 36 hits = 20 wounds

----

Normal Shooting + Rapid Fire & FRFSRF

With no modifiers (strait shooting against a T4 enemy)
Total of 72 shots = 36 hits = 12 wounds

Rerolls to hit (Twin-Linked)
Total of 72 shots = 54 hits = 18 wounds

Rerolls to Wound (Shred)
Total of 72 shots = 36 hits = 20 wounds

Rerolls to hit & wound (Twin-Linked & Shred)
Total of 72 shots = 54 hits = 30 wounds

----

Now what I wanted to look at was what a blob squad of 3 would look like, assuming that each squad composed of 1 sargent, 1 special weapon and 1 heavy weapon (2 guardsmen) that left 6 generic guardsmen. (as my general loadout is such for my infantry squads)

Normal Shooting

With no modifiers (strait shooting against a T4 enemy)
Total of 18 shots = 9 hits = 3 wounds

Rerolls to hit (Twin-Linked)
Total of 18 shots = 13 hits = 4 wounds

Rerolls to Wound (Shred)
Total of 18 shots = 9 hits = 5 wounds

Rerolls to hit & wound (Twin-Linked & Shred)
Total of 18 shots = 13 hits = 7 wounds

----

Normal Shooting + Rapid Fire (or FRFSRF as it is the same effect)

With no modifiers (strait shooting against a T4 enemy)
Total of 36 shots = 18 hits = 6 wounds

Rerolls to hit (Twin-Linked)
Total of 36 shots = 27 hits = 9 wounds

Rerolls to Wound (Shred)
Total of 36 shots = 18 hits = 10 wounds

Rerolls to hit & wound (Twin-Linked & Shred)
Total of 36 shots = 27 hits = 15 wounds

----

Normal Shooting + Rapid Fire & FRFSRF

With no modifiers (strait shooting against a T4 enemy)
Total of 54 shots = 27 hits = 9 wounds

Rerolls to hit (Twin-Linked)
Total of 54 shots = 40 hits = 13 wounds

Rerolls to Wound (Shred)
Total of 54 shots = 27 hits = 15 wounds

Rerolls to hit & wound (Twin-Linked & Shred)
Total of 54 shots = 40 hits = 22 wounds

----

So assuming that my math does not suck (I don't think that I made a mistake.) I found it interesting how with the abilty to reroll wounds is just about as good as having FRFSRF; having twin-linked is probably just as good if you are a large squad, for small squads having rerolls to wound is better.

New link to the newer excel file.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-d...ew?usp=sharing

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilbatte
if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
Fallen is offline  
 
post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-20-16, 01:28 PM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,028
Reputation: 94


Default

OK. I have to ask this before typing anything else because there's something very silly happening here.

Is the purpose of this exercise to change FRFSRF to something else or to add effects to it while still increasing the number of shots fired?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Related Projects
ntaw is online now  
post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-20-16, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Fallen's Avatar
Fallen's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,674
Reputation: 19


Default

Initially it was about the possibility to change it to something else...

mainly the idea of changing the order to provide Twin-Link, Shred, or both; instead of just adding a die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
The second part of it was "is adding an extra shot really good? I think I might rather just be able to reroll wounds...*rolls dice*...I wonder about rerolls to hit...*more dice rolls*...maybe both?
----

I posted two different unit load outs of 30man blob squads, while unnecessary I did include a complete result between normal shooting (with dice modifiers), normal rapid fire/normal shooting + FRFSRF, and lastly rapid fire + FRFSRF.

This way I think it is a little easier to compare "normal shooting + shred" (Section1 line C) vs normal shooting + FRFSRF (Section2 line A); I also included the entirety of the effects including the unit already having FRFSRF so that if FRFSRF was kept as it is, what should people expect to see if they wanted to use abilities/psy powers that grant reroll modifiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilbatte
if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
Fallen is offline  
post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-20-16, 06:32 PM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,028
Reputation: 94


Default

So then if FRFSRF makes you shoot more why do all of your comparisons show the difference in wounds between FRFSRF and the same number of shots with TL, shred, or both?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Related Projects
ntaw is online now  
post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-20-16, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Fallen's Avatar
Fallen's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,674
Reputation: 19


Default

well, in the excel file you can see that I am finding the wounds for a total of 12 things.

First is the amount of wounds with no modifiers, amount of wounds with rerolls to hit, amount of wounds with rerolls to wound, and amount of wounds with rerolls to hit & to wound.

the 2nd and 3rd step is simply doing the same math for when the unit is using rapid fire (or FRFSRF as it is the same output of dice), and rapid fire WITH FRFSRF.

I did it this way because it is a little easier, at least for me, to explain that "normal shooting" with ANY modifier vs Normal Shooting + Rapid Fire/FRFSRF with no modifier and the expectations between them.

Likewise I can compare with the same ease between Normal shooting + Rapid fire vs Normal shooting + Rapid Fire + FRFSRF with the same principles.

----

The middle section can be used to compare the top and bottom sections - do you wish to compare the unit's output when it receives FRFSRF when it is also rapid firing or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilbatte
if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
Fallen is offline  
post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-21-16, 02:12 AM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,028
Reputation: 94


Default

It helps me to see comparative results together, so if you'll bear with me and if I'm reading your new spreadsheet correctly:

Quote:
18 lasguns shooting at 13-24" range (rounding down to-wound):

standard no modifiers, 18 shots = 3 wounds

FRFSRF +1 shot each gun, 36 shots = 6 wounds

twin-linked, 18 shots = 4 wounds

shred, 18 shots = 5 wounds

twin-linked and shred = 7 wounds
Quote:
18 lasguns shooting at 12" or less range:

standard no modifiers, 36 shots = 6 wounds

FRFSRF +1 shot each gun, 54 shots = 9 wounds

twin-linked, 36 shots = 9 wounds

shred, 36 shots = 10 wounds

twin-linked and shred, 36 shots = 15 wounds
Notice any discrepancies from your previous results?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Related Projects

Last edited by ntaw; 07-21-16 at 02:28 AM.
ntaw is online now  
post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-21-16, 03:33 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Fallen's Avatar
Fallen's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,674
Reputation: 19


Default

@ntaw - First off your table is indeed correct...and after checking the original excel in the OP, I noticed that it had an error when calculating the amount of successful wounds for the "reroll to hit" section - I gave it too many hits to base its number off of.

Besides that I haven't been able to notice any errors - that alone makes Shred a little more powerful than Twin-Linked.

If anyone does notice a mathematical error, please let me know ASAP and I shall fix it.

----

The findings have lead me to think that FRFSRF is not all that it is cracked up to be, I personally think just giving the unit Twin-Linked, would be just as effective; granting the unit the Shred special rule might make it even more powerful than it currently is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilbatte
if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
Fallen is offline  
post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-21-16, 03:42 AM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,028
Reputation: 94


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
The findings have lead me to think that FRFSRF is not all that it is cracked up to be, I personally think just giving the unit Twin-Linked, would be just as effective; granting the unit the Shred special rule might make it even more powerful than it currently is.
Even though my examples show that FRFSRF outperforms shred and twin-linked at 13-24" and does basically the same damage within rapid fire range?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Related Projects
ntaw is online now  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > General 40k

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome