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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 02:42 AM
jin
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
And that's fine, but if you're going to an organised tournament with the ITC/NOVA/Adepticon rulesets or with its' own FAQ and ban list rather than entering into a narrative campaign or one of the ridiculous Games Workshop-organised clusterfucks at Warhammer World, and you insist upon bringing some bad list with the new Deathwatch Kill Team and you just, like, want to build a narrative man, and fuck those WAAC jerks sure are uptight assholes and stuff, then you are a grade-A asshole for not only complaining that people who went to a tournament tried to win, but also for attending an event with a list that nobody else wanted to play. Well done, you made the event less fun for everyone involved; you, your opponents, the TOs who have to deal with the knock to the reputation, everyone.
only sith deal in absolutes.

the 'community' seems caught in a schism,
cut into factions, yet still one body.
gw is giving up the ghost, so to speak,
as it is directing itself into the 'we make plastic toys'
'buy the complete playset and receive free shipping'
wannabe hasbro mode.
so, increasingly,
it seems that
it is up to the people willing to put in the time and effort
to keep the creature moving.
and there seem to be two sorts of motivations driving these people.

we must admit, to each other,
that one without the other will die alone.

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Well, I'm sorry that it upsets you that other people like things you don't like, but calling them pricks because they like playing with their war dollies differently to how you like playing with your war dollies is a bit silly.
you missed the point entirely.
a prickly inclination drives one's rules as written religiosity for self-aggrandizement,
not the other way around.


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No, you shouldn't do well in a tournament. You should place highly in a painting competition, or a comp event with sportsmanship points (insomuch as anyone can place highly in that system, it's always a bit of a gamble as to who gets sportsmanship points and who doesn't). You should be respected for your care for the community and desire for fairness. But you shouldn't get to win tournaments just because you're a nice guy with a painted army, because a tournament shouldn't be focussed on those things. Many tournaments do have a set of awards for sportsmanship or painting or whatever, but the guy who wins the tournament is the guy who wins the most battle points/wins the most games by the biggest margin/scores the most victory points in his games or whatever else.
who said 'win'?
but, really, why not?
anyways, here, i take it that you mean the itc/nova/adepticon scene, so of course. THOSE tournaments.
sprotsmanship is a bit of a gamble,
because this is not a hyper competitive racketball game for MOST people,
and it is frustrating when the measure of success becomes so loaded towards exploitation and free capital. but, then again, these are the virtues that have risen in the usa to replace the ethic that founded the nation, and another reason that i don't miss it, living there, in a sort of shark tank.

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Here we agree. The aim of a game is to win. The point is to have fun. Anyone who abides by only one of those two things is an asshat.
if this is true,
then we must encourage an environment in which both flourish together in the same room, no?

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So can I; the first player. I want to see if my Guard Blob + Librarius or, when it's finished, Ultramarines Skyhammer can deal with massed Infiltrate and first-turn charges. You'd prefer to play against the second player - and that's absolutely fine. Neither of us is more right than the other; your preference to play in a more casual, perhaps lax environment with a focus on cool models and fluff instead of the rules of the game is no more or less valid than my preference to play against the first player and test my skill as a player of the game.
right. good. go for it.
frankly, i believe that this read on the game is due to the influence of card players.
of course, the usa loves card games... poker, magic.
which is kind of like playing with a ping pong paddle, for me.
i mean, even if you are great at ping pong,
it is still ping pong,
and the paddle still feels like a ping pong paddle in my hand.
it doesn't feel substantial,
and rather sounds hollow, like its airy balls.
cards are boring, for myself,
and this is why i liked 40k and man o war and necromunda and ...
because they were not card games.
now, why not just print the cards and set them on the table and move them around?
if people are just going to pay someone else to paint someone else's list
or worse, some unreasonable list which no one would really want to collect
unless they were some dentist's kid with too much pocket money and a needy ego
then why not just make it the card game that it really is?
i stack my deck against your deck and we toss off on some expensive board.
yeay, you win.

Last edited by jin; 03-04-16 at 02:46 AM.
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 03:45 AM
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only sith deal in absolutes.
That statement is an absolute.

Also, as far as tournament versus casual play, you don't need both. If tournaments stop existing, casual players will keep playing casually. If casual play stops happening, tournaments will still happen. They don't need to mutually coexist. Playing in a tournament IS fun for people, which is what MidnightSun is saying.

Everything you have posted thus far reads as if you feel like you have the moral high road for not playing competitively (which is maybe not your intent, but I'd have a hard time believing that) and THAT is the problem here. Let MidnightSun and others play the game they want to play. Don't say total bullshit like "points and even rules are for people who can't think for themselves" because you are trying to restrict the way people play the game. If you want to play a game without rules, play Calvinball or some shit. Don't tell someone else they aren't playing the game right because you don't like following the rules.

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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyriks View Post
That statement is an absolute.

Also, as far as tournament versus casual play, you don't need both. If tournaments stop existing, casual players will keep playing casually. If casual play stops happening, tournaments will still happen. They don't need to mutually coexist. Playing in a tournament IS fun for people, which is what MidnightSun is saying.

Everything you have posted thus far reads as if you feel like you have the moral high road for not playing competitively (which is maybe not your intent, but I'd have a hard time believing that) and THAT is the problem here. Let MidnightSun and others play the game they want to play. Don't say total bullshit like "points and even rules are for people who can't think for themselves" because you are trying to restrict the way people play the game. If you want to play a game without rules, play Calvinball or some shit. Don't tell someone else they aren't playing the game right because you don't like following the rules.
"you don't need both."
well, i think that you do.
with only one, you get a card game with big expensive cards.
with only the other, you get hair on your neck and back probably,
and crusty ass cracks and rotten teeth from gamer-meth, i.e. mountain dew.

so, moral high road, no, but i do know how to read.

and i read a lot.
for example, the role of cooperation in the emergence of civilization over evolutionary time.
i read about that, too.
under a cooperative umbrella, great things are made by good people working together.
under a competitive umbrella, not so much.

this is not a moral high road, so much as a fact of human evolution.

you, i think cannot read clearly
because you are so filled with some prejudice that what you see is what you have already seen.

for example:
"Don't say total bullshit like "points and even rules are for people who can't think for themselves" because you are trying to restrict the way people play the game."
i didn't say that.
i was summarizing an existing and recent discussion in the broader community of gamers who frequent blogs about games specifically 40k and Fantasy.
and i am not trying to restrict how you play with your toys or cards or whatever it is you play with.
i am just trying to make room for others who play differently under one umbrella,
a cooperative umbrella.
but see, yours is not a cooperative umbrella, and so you are unable to stand under a different kind of umbrella,
so you cannot really read what i am writing, as you only see the inside of your own lukewarm skull.

Last edited by jin; 03-04-16 at 07:02 AM.
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 01:00 PM
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If you want people to understand what you are writing, try actually using punctuation and proper grammar.

Cooperation is valuable to humanity as a race, yes. That has literally no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. Competitive play and casual play do not need each other. Some people enjoy only one of them, and they will keep enjoying it if the other stops. Sure, people that like both would be sad, but it wouldn't prevent them from still playing the game. In fact, if Games Workshop wasn't catering to different crowds, a lot of people might even like the game more. Neither competitive play nor casual play is more valid or necessary. Your opinion that the two need to cooperate is irrelevant.

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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 04:24 PM
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Guys, is it really worth interacting this way? The thread's about the Deathwatch and their viability in 40k with their known WD rules, not the differences between competitive and casual play.

I was looking at the FOC designations of the various DW models and there's the following assortment:

2 HQ
3 Elite
1 Troop
1 Fast Attack

Given that we have all 8 pages of rules spoiled (thanks to some handsome guy over in the linked Rumour thread) I doubt we'll be seeing any form of Deathwatch Detachment in the near future. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like the only way to field them outside of the supremely awesome Formation is via an Allied Detachment.

The only way I could play them as a standalone Last Chancer/Dirty Dozen (the bird counts, right??) force is via an Unbound list. Looks like custom mission scenarios will be in order if I ever get the chance to involve them in games. I know a few people getting the box and while they all play in the local tournaments they also love a good narrative match with a special scenario to change things up a bit.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 05:05 PM
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Stop being on-topic, can't you see we're crashing this thread with no survivors?!

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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Given that we have all 8 pages of rules spoiled (thanks to some handsome guy over in the linked Rumour thread) I doubt we'll be seeing any form of Deathwatch Detachment in the near future. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like the only way to field them outside of the supremely awesome Formation is via an Allied Detachment.

The only way I could play them as a standalone Last Chancer/Dirty Dozen (the bird counts, right??) force is via an Unbound list. Looks like custom mission scenarios will be in order if I ever get the chance to involve them in games. I know a few people getting the box and while they all play in the local tournaments they also love a good narrative match with a special scenario to change things up a bit.
...but why would you want to? You can represent everyone other than Jap Cap Subuteo with a 1st Company Strike Force, except it'd be, y'know, customisable so you can fulfill your 'my dudes' dreams.

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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
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Have you seen the Deathwatch Strike Team formation in Damnos?

It's apocalypse, but not very overpowered. Far superior choice, I feel.

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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 05:13 PM
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Standalone meaning by themselves, nothing else. Do you remember how the Last Chancers were introduced to the game? Those were some of the most fun games I ever played as a kid.

I want to because I think it's cool, why else? You should know by now I'm not talking about playing this at a tournament or in a competitive setting, we've had enough conversations over the years and threads to move on from such assumptions. Did my mention of custom scenarios and narrative gaming not tip you off brother?

EDIT: ninja'd by @Xabre . I would like to learn more about that Detachment you speak of.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Standalone meaning by themselves, nothing else. Do you remember how the Last Chancers were introduced to the game? Those were some of the mose fun games I ever played as a kid.
Before my time, me old fruit.

The First Company Strike Force is nearly standalone - sure, you have to bring 15 guys instead of what, nine or ten or however many there are in the box, but is that really such a massive deal?

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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
I want to because I think it's cool, why else? You should know by now I'm not talking about playing this at a tournament or in a competitive setting, we've had enough conversations over the years and threads to move on from such assumptions. Did my mention of custom scenarios and narrative gaming not tip you off brother?
So why not use the formation?

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EDIT: ninja'd by @Xabre . I would like to learn more about that Detachment you speak of.
2 Sternguard Squads and a Captain, they get Preferred Enemy against one Xenos Codex chosen at the start of the game and get Antiphasic Bolts added to their list of ammo; AP4 bolters that force re-rolls on Reanimation Protocols.

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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 03-04-16, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Before my time, me old fruit.


2 Sternguard Squads and a Captain, they get Preferred Enemy against one Xenos Codex chosen at the start of the game and get Antiphasic Bolts added to their list of ammo; AP4 bolters that force re-rolls on Reanimation Protocols.
2+ squads of EITHER Sternguard or Vanguard, in any combination.

And the anti-phasic bolts only affect bolters/combis, so no help to pistols in the hands of the Vanguards.

There's also bonus VP if these guys slay a Xenos warlord.

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