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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-16, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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Default Call Out: (Fixing the broken and dumb)

Ok, let's see how this goes - hopefully well, and not devolve a bitch-fest.

Since I have publicly put out what changes I would make to 40k

I would like to hear what everyone's 5 least favorite things about their army is (feel free to do all of your armies). Also as a "play along" version your 5 least favorite things about the BRB (same rules)

For example;

Point Costs
Model/Unit Values (Wounds, Attacks, Armor Values, etc)
Special Rules
Wargear

Requirements:

This is Stuff strait from the Force Organization Chart / CAD Forces only - Keep your bitching about formations and that shit where they should be - at the bottom of a beer during a game of apocalypse.

Don't just give me a list of units and rules.

If a unit needs to be changed - tell me why it needs to be changed, and what changes would you make.

If a rule needs to be changed - Tell me verbatim what the current rule is, and why/what you would change.

I'm not psychic - I can't read minds (The other voices are happy with that) so please be as detailed as possible.

DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS

Feel free to PM me or reply to this thread, If possible I would like it if everyone that replies in the thread would attach their "complaints" as either a .PDF or a .TXT file (so that anyone can access them - no .Pages or .Doc or .Docx)

The attachments are mainly because it will be easier for me to keep things organized - so please do try to follow that request.

----

I will try to keep up with the thread as much as possible to keep people engaged.

*Crosses fingers that this goes as planned*

----

Thank you for reading, and a special thank you in advance if you decide to play along.

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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-16, 08:10 AM
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All right, of the codexes I own:

CSM:

1. Everything Mutilators. There are so many things wrong here, from points costs to funky weapons to various other shoddy things. To make them worthwhile, say... No scatter when DSing in and eliminate scatter on nearby DSing units within 6", or something. Plus having them be cheaper by 10-ish points.
2. Warp Talons. Able to assault the turn they DS, to reflect their "hunting a target through the warp then cutting their way into reality with their super-claws when they catch its warp-spoor." Some reliable way to eliminate scatter (and don't say "Dimensional Key," because I said "reliable") would also be nice, but see prior entry for a nice synergy option.
3. Daemon Prince. Simple change: give it Eternal Warrior back, and/or make it T6. I am so very frustrated with DPs that can get instagibbed by so many things in the game.
4. Thousand Sons. Change their Slow & Purposeful to Relentless for as long as their squad Sorc is alive; also make the squad Sorc 20-ish points cheaper, since he's 60 points for a crappy ML1 who rolls 1 crappy witchfire with a crappy combat statline and a force weapon you're paying full price on. And hell, make 1ksons 3 points cheaper per mini while you're at it.
5. Defiler. Either make it AV 13 13 11, like the cheaper-and-eminently-superior Soul Grinder, or make it at least 35 points cheaper (sure, strip out IWND and Daemonforge if you want to get fancy). Also, give it some way to be able to fire all its weapons without having to snap fire on the non-battle-cannon weapons (meaning it, as it stands, can't even fire its t-l heavy flamer/havoc launcher arm if it does use its cannon... or you have to spend a bunch of points on a funky melee weapon). Good grief, it needs an overhaul badly.


Those are some of the worst offenders, and the requested 5, but... good grief, there are so many more. Give Raptors some role that Bikers can't fill far better and more efficiently; rework the psychic powers so that each God has 6 available and Tzeentch's (you know, the god of magic's) powers are weird funky things with interesting synergy rather than crummy freaking witchfires; tweaking 4 or so of the Special Characters to do other things than "be a decent infantry fighter for 160-ish points"; fiddle with Possessed again, since they're still frustratingly underpowered--look at Wulfen for how they have the potential to be; reduce costs on (melee)Chosen, Berzerkers, Noise Marines and Plague Marines (at the very least) so they're fieldable; make Land Raiders cheaper and/or introduce another, much cheaper Assault Vehicle; add some viable AA apart from "crappy overpriced flakk missiles or a full-priced Helldrake with 4 S8 BS3 AP4 HAC shots"; revamp the 4 artifacts that nobody ever takes; overhaul the Dark Apostle to actually have a use...

I think you get the picture. I want to be done with this post some time tonight, and I have some other codexes to get to, so--moving on, sorry for not being more specific.

+++

Daemonkin:

1. Include Kharn.
2. Include Skarbrand.
3. Include Karanak.
4. Copy/paste some complaints from the CSM pile: cheaper Zerkers, rework Possession random bonuses, cheaper or tougher Defilers; a use for Raptors besides "in one formation."
5. Bloodcrushers. For the love of Khorne, give them T5 and a 3+ armor save. They might actually be worth their ridiculous price tag with those changes to their stats...

As a whole... Daemonkin compensates for the weaknesses of the Khorne elements of both its parent codexes quite well with the blood tithe mechanic, so no complaints there. More needs tweaking and tuning than a serious, major overhaul, as I see it.

+++

Daemons:

1. Bloodcrushers. The cat is already out of the gorebag, I suppose, so see above for Dr. Mossy's prescription.
2. Warpflame. Drop it entirely or change it to something benign, like "reroll Soul Blaze checks when the fire would be extinguished." That has the added benefit of making Soul Blaze not utterly junk.
3. Tzeentchi Witchfires. I know the leaked campaign supplement loads them up with a crapload more witchfires, yes, this isn't going to change, but... GW! Please! Policy change here, now, please!
4. Put Horrors back to being a shooting unit. We have enough Daemonology summoners and warp charge banks as it is, and Horrors are useless in combat and damn well nearly useless at range, these days. Also... I appreciate the spirit of the Blue Horrors rule, but change that to something actually useful (FNP 6+, or something) or cut it.
5. Tweak the Herald special characters so that you ever see them on the field--and while you're at it, count the Masque and the Blue Scribes as a Herald for FOC purposes. The Masque absolutely needs some sort of survivability, preferably making her actually be an independent character; Skulltaker needs AP2; Epidimius's tally mechanic needs to find a balance between it's brokenly-good-old and brokenly-awful-new settings; the Changeling needs some Callidus-esque nonsense rather than his fairly useless current abilities; and Karanak at the very least needs Rending, rather than AP-.

+++

I do also own Astra Militarum, but haven't really played them enough to have strong opinions on what ought to be changed, apart their codex generally being... slightly rather less powerful than the current codex creep curve.

I guess one concrete complaint is how Commissars have been made wholly obsolete by Priests, which cost half as many points and grant Zealot, which is a lot better than "summary execution on an officer for a rerolled Ld test." Make Commissars grant some other bonus, I say, that stacks with Zealot and possible orders. Rerolls to wound if you pass a priest-style exhortation test, perhaps, to pair with Zealot's Hatred? Or Preferred Enemy? Some way to make 6s in melee always wound on the squad, so that a mob of guardsmen can swamp a Wraithknight? I mean, the priest has several mini-orders it can attempt, so why not a Commissar to boot.

CSM Plog, Tactica

What sphinx of plascrete and adamantium bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination? Imperator! Imperator!
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-16, 09:32 AM
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Well, my office network is down, so time to trawl forums on my phone.

Righto,

Vanilla SMs:

1: Assault marines - I just really feel these don't deserve the name. I'd like to see maybe an extra attack or a reduced cost for the jump pack, but for me 3 WS4 S4 AP- attacks on the charge is rarely worth the 17 points. I play RG so these guys move into the usable category, but they rarely shine.

2: Normal Terminators: Assault terminators in a land raider are glorious, but their "shooty" cousins kick out a very underwhelming amount of firepower for their points cost. I'd like to see options for more special weapons in smaller squads, or maybe simply improved ballistic skill? I love the models, but these guys almost never make it into my list.

3. Honour Guard - Specifically the chapter champion. Either make him good in challenges or take that stupid forced challenge rule off him.

4. Where the hell is my Jump Pack command squad option?!

5. Characters. Iron Hands feel the burn here, why the hell should one chapter get SIX characters, whilst another first founding chapter gets zero? Lets do a quick break down of Codex: Ultramarines to point out the insanity.

Papa Smurf: No problems with Codex Ultramarines getting the only lord of war.

Capt. Sicarius: This is where my problems start. Lets count the number of C:SM characters that provide reserve modifiers. What's that? There's two!? And they're both SMURFS!? Bullshit.

Tigger: Here's the other reserve fairy, and the only ML3 Libby in in the book. If anyone should be getting an ML3 libby, it's White Scars.

Cassius: Tough as nails Chaplain? Salamanders or Iron Hands.

Telion; scout character? Frigging Raven Guard!

Chronos: This last one really takes the biscuit. Lets just ignore the vehicle orientated chapter with no characters when we make a specialist vehicle character, because Ultramarines need fancy land raiders!
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-16, 01:11 PM
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I totally agree with both posts above (especially @MossyToes, because Chaos is what I play and principally interested in since my come-back into the scene, but Space Marines are the ones I played before - Angels of Death and Ultramarines Codices of the 2nd Edition - and I therefore quite understand the lack of characters for other chapters than the Ultramarines).

The 5 things I think necessary to change regarding Chaos (mainly CSM, but with some close links to Daemons) are :

- The standardisation of the "Daemon" trait : the same wording and advantages for "Daemon" (CSM), "Daemonic Possession" (CSM), "Daemonforge" (CSM) and "Daemon of ..." (Daemons), including all of them being "Fearless" and replacing the "Ignore crew shaken" with the invulnerable save for vehicles (personnally, I would add "Eternal Warrior" to Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes only, but maybe give 2 Wounds for models which are hosting a daemon, like Possessed, Warp Talons, ...). And the possibility to buy "Daemonic Possession" on a Helbrute (just a detail compared to the rest, though).

- Lowering randomness : Chaos is entropy, and I'm not discussing it. But, even then, CSM and Daemons Codices play too much upon it compared to other armies (dice rolls for activating an artefact, for chaos boons, possessed advantage for the current turn, ...). That (too often) makes us roll dice to gain not-so-great-assets-compared-to-other-armies while taking the risk of seeing what has been paid for (and, sometimes, not for a cheap price) not only be unuseful, but also work against us. Paying so much for a possible +2 invul to one unit per turn with 1/3 chances to give it -1, or (amongst others) removing scatter for DS reserves only after CC kills are just a waste.

- Improving assault : Chaos is a CC oriented faction, but lacks of basic assault advantages, in matters like "offensive grenades" (Possessed, Warp Talons, Mutilators) and vehicles (just one, and an expensive one, for an assault oriented faction is not much enough). This can be done by adding Stormraven or Drop Pods equivalents, considering Rhinos as open-topped, ... and allowing CSM hosting a Daemon to keep their basic gear, for instance.

- Developing characters : some standard profiles (like the Dark Apostle or the Warpsmith) are far too limited to really be useful (except in very specific army lists). For named characters, the issue is basically the same as for Space Marines : a lot of them are missing (from the fluff or even from some profiles in the rules - talking about a named Dark Apostle with specific gear or abilities, for instance). Some of them, like Abaddon, should also be raised to Lords of War.

- And, finally, diversifying Chosen : these are supposed to be the elite (both into the fluff and the game) of a Legion/Warband, and they are limited to special weapons and a rhino. They should have access to different abilities and gear (jump packs, infiltration, tank hunters, daemons, ...).

I don't know whether GW is planning to provide us with a new version of the CSM Codex (it's probably not a waste to invest into CSM for a brand new release in a 2 or 3 years term), but it also seems useful to handle the short term. And, within the current system, this can rather easily be done through Detachments and Formations (giving special rules for particular organizational charts without directly modifying the Codex). I have made my personal attempt on this ( Chaos Space Marines Detachments and Formations), and I'm not the only one.

It could be a quick way for GW to patch things (not only for the CSM, even if they are amongst the few factions which have the fewest Detachments/Formations of the game) while working upon a new Codex at the mid/long term.

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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-16, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush Darling View Post
Well, my office network is down, so time to trawl forums on my phone.

Righto,

Vanilla SMs:

1: Assault marines - I just really feel these don't deserve the name. I'd like to see maybe an extra attack or a reduced cost for the jump pack, but for me 3 WS4 S4 AP- attacks on the charge is rarely worth the 17 points. I play RG so these guys move into the usable category, but they rarely shine.

2: Normal Terminators: Assault terminators in a land raider are glorious, but their "shooty" cousins kick out a very underwhelming amount of firepower for their points cost. I'd like to see options for more special weapons in smaller squads, or maybe simply improved ballistic skill? I love the models, but these guys almost never make it into my list.

3. Honour Guard - Specifically the chapter champion. Either make him good in challenges or take that stupid forced challenge rule off him.

4. Where the hell is my Jump Pack command squad option?!

5. Characters. Iron Hands feel the burn here, why the hell should one chapter get SIX characters, whilst another first founding chapter gets zero? Lets do a quick break down of Codex: Ultramarines to point out the insanity.

Papa Smurf: No problems with Codex Ultramarines getting the only lord of war.

Capt. Sicarius: This is where my problems start. Lets count the number of C:SM characters that provide reserve modifiers. What's that? There's two!? And they're both SMURFS!? Bullshit.

Tigger: Here's the other reserve fairy, and the only ML3 Libby in in the book. If anyone should be getting an ML3 libby, it's White Scars.

Cassius: Tough as nails Chaplain? Salamanders or Iron Hands.

Telion; scout character? Frigging Raven Guard!

Chronos: This last one really takes the biscuit. Lets just ignore the vehicle orientated chapter with no characters when we make a specialist vehicle character, because Ultramarines need fancy land raiders!
Man, this is spot on. I tried getting into SM but am not interested in Ultramarine so I felt had no options. Most SM units are almost identical to each other, which is kinda boring. The units that were different enough to be interesting either cost too much or were a named Ultramarine character.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-20-16, 01:16 AM
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The first thought that comes to mind is:

Dark Angels:
If your Company Master is equipped with terminator armor: terminators as troops, if he's on a bike: ravenwing units as troops. Or maybe even Interrogator chaplains get either as troops.

This is the main glaring "issue" I have with the Codex's I own. Not super important, but in my opinion, important enough. Having the characters as requirements just does not cut it for me. They're way too taxing in points.
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-20-16, 01:36 AM
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^ named characters are not required to run Deathwing or Ravenwing.
They were in 6th ed, and now in 7th ed, you need a formation to run them. I am talking regular FOC rules
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-20-16, 02:29 AM
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Nothing really makes me NEED to, but having the "x allows you to take y as troops" option still available is just a trope I always like (i am a csm player and i felt that that option made the book fairly unique). Just felt it was a concept that was under utilized before formations came about.

Tl;dr living in the past
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-16, 01:30 AM
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Okay, first up will be tyranids.

1: The carnifex. What is it even there for anymore? It's an all rounder not as good in cc as the other monsters, and not as good at range or support as the tyrant or tyrannofex. It is just as fragile as the other monsters, maybe even moreso due to the lower than most wound count. I'm okay with it being an all rounder, really. But if that's going to be the case then it needs to be tougher, more resilient, it needs to have its own selling point that makes it worth considering after the trygon or exocrine. Bring back its T7, W5 and 2+ armour save. If it can't be more dangerous than the other monsters, it should at least be more resilient. A near unkillable monster as it is in the fluff.

2: The venom cannon. There was a time this fired three shots and wasn't blast. It needs to be this again, if only for the sake of the harpy and flyrant so they can be viable anti air units against things like stormravens. The crone is just too unreliable.

3: Lictors. They need to be able to assault off the turn they deep strike again. Forcing them to use the standard DS and Infiltrate rules makes them useless. Or give them their own rule to reflect their ambush attacks.

4: The Tyranid Prime. It's supposed to be a cheaper alternative to a hive tyrant and yet it is still too overpriced for its vanilla build and options. I would like to see it a little more diverse, maybe not restricted to just being a tyranid warrior. For example:

Lictor Prime, have the prime be a lictor with access to infiltration and stealth rules.
Ravener Prime, the prime is a ravener with faster movement and Hammer of Wrath.
Shrike Prime, self explanatory. Let the prime have the option for wings.
Zoanthrope Prime, give the prime options to be a psyker.
Venomthrope Prime, the prime has access to potent poison attacks and defensive rules.

5: Psykers. I'd like to see tyranid psykers once more have access to Biomancy and Telepathy. Being restricted to their own disciplines is too limiting, and they're supposed to be more adaptive than that.



Nonsense is our Salvation

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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-16, 05:00 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Keep your bitching about formations and that shit where they should be - at the bottom of a beer during a game of apocalypse.
I'm just reposting this here - not calling anyone out (and sorry @ntaw for you being right behind this you were just the first to mention stuffs) but I don't give 2 fucks about formations and fixing said formations because my "answer" would be to just get rid of all that shit (along with Lords of War - since I think it's stupid as fuck for a character to be one), and put it in an apocalypse book.

Which is the entire reason why I asked you guys to NOT include anything about formations for me

Quote:
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1. Formations that are even remotely useful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjar667 View Post
Dark Angels:
If your Company Master is equipped with terminator armor: terminators as troops, if he's on a bike: ravenwing units as troops. Or maybe even Interrogator chaplains get either as troops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjar667 View Post
now in 7th ed, you need a formation to run them. I am talking regular FOC rules
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
What makes you need to play a Combined Arms Detachment?
*cough* read 1st post *cough* as that is the entire reason behind this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjar667 View Post
Tl;dr living in the past


@Einherjar667 I'll just let you know that a generic character for the DA won't unlock an entire unit as troops; Probably just 1 (or 2...IDK?) DW for a dude in termie armor, 2 RW for a dude on a bike, and 1 of each for a Interrogator Chaplain. So there's that, besides that "thought" I haven't worked on them yet - been doing IRL Work, and I'm starting with @Mossy Toes and working down. (Fuck Mutilators)

Because besides that I think that the leaders of those factions (+ Azreal(?)) will be the only way to unlock the entire bunch - because as far as I recall those "factions" within the DA don't mix with the plebs (Green Wing) too much. The Named Characters will probably get a tweak as well.

----

@Rush Darling I'll also let you know that I'm not going to fuck with the NAMES and BACKSTORIES of named characters from Vanilla Marines - might tweak their points, but as far as I am concerned that's something you can model up yourself and "Count As" that shit.

----

I'll do my best to release updates on Sundays and/or Wednesdays. Probably just once a week, It'll take longer for certain armies since I will need to borrow Codexes from friends ( @Serpion5 & @Rush Darling Your 'Nids & SMs are here)

Quote:
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if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.

Last edited by Fallen; 02-21-16 at 06:39 AM.
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